18-03-1999 10:10									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ARGHHHHHHH!
That record will fall if it's the last thing I do.
(insert music from any Rocky movie)

	17-03-1999 23:04									#62
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Bird,

I think you have to look over your early science path. Copernicu's Observatory should be built before the Theatre. The earlier the beakers start accumulating the better. Go for astronomy before medecine (doesn't astronomy come earlier anyway?). I haven't had any trouble getting both.

Initially happiness isn't a problem (even without HG), ST is not needed until later. Building a colosseum seems like overkill. I build a temple and let some of the NONE units take care of unhappiness (monarchy is my first goal) until I have ST.

The thing I like most about ST in this type of game, is the ability to set the luxuries' rate to zero after "we love the president"-days without causing unhappiness.

About the science wonders: didn't Ming do it without the Colossus his first time? If we are talking about landing on AC asap, all three are needed.

geofelt,

If you were cheated, what do you call this? (Don't tell me, I don't want to know!)

In a three city game I launched a ship, estimated to arrive in 2009 (like Bird, I can hear some chuckles!). Feeling confident I didn't pay much attention to the game. Turns out the Japanese launch a faster ship, arriving that very same year.

The years go by, 2009 pops up and the Japanese ship lands before mine. ARGHHH... Talk about defeat! Should have chosen the Romans (I think I played as the Spanish).

Carolus

	18-03-1999 00:07									#63
	Got spare money?

Carolus: My post wasn't very clear. I have been building Copernicus first, choosing that over KRC, but usually get medicine during the process or already have it. Then, even if KRC is still available, and it sometimes isn't, I build ST. By then, KRC has always been built. KRC clearly cannot have priority over ST, but I was wondering whether it should have priority over Copernicus. I didn't think it should, and based on the comments from the pros, it's pretty clear that it shouldn't.

By the way, in my current game I switched to 7 civs (from 5) and it makes a HUGE difference. I'm not sure I'll win because the city is growing too slowly (good defensive location, but too many plains, no grasslands), but the money coming in from tribute is much greater.

	18-03-1999 00:53									#64
	Got spare money?

Just for the record, my 1953 run was done without the Colossus. and to which takes precedence betweem the observatory and ST. Which ever one is available first. You have to have them both. It all depends on which sciences you are allowed to choose from. I would prefer the observatory first but sometimes I get locked out of that path.
RAH

	18-03-1999 04:10									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sounds like I'll have to work on trade more. I do like those wine hills.
For those of you who like tribute, get an alliance early with a civ that is likely to grow. You can ask for gifts for a long time after you go to republic/democracy. A neighbor civ is good because you get a warning before the inevitable sneak attack.

	18-03-1999 14:43									#66
	Inflate your Upload Space

Bird,

KRC is really "just" an early factory. I agree with you about the ranking of these three wonders, KRC has the lowest priority in my book (in this type of game).

About the science path: after philosophy astronomy is just around the corner more often than not. If I get medecine first and start on ST, and discover astronomy while building it, I would switch with one exception: if other civs are also building ST.

Carolus

	18-03-1999 18:17									#67
	Put an end to popups!

Two gold, one whale and a fur did the trick.
HEY RAH... 1942! Read it and weep.
I know this can be beat... but I was pleased with the outcome. None of the other civs were even close in science.
Col, ST, Corn, Issac, LW, SOL, UN and Apollo were all that were needed. The best was, I got electricity one turn after the GL was built... he he he.

	18-03-1999 18:30									#68
	Got spare money?

Sh*t, If I only could have posted 10 minutes earlier. My spaceship is away and talk about twins, it's scheduled to land in 1942. I guess we will momentarily share the record. The ship has no fusion drive or it would have landed in the thirties, so I know it can be beat. But I'm satisfied with my effort so it's time to move on to despotism. My wonder list matches Ming's (what a surprise) My specials were slightly different, two wheats a silk and a whine. (excuse me that was wine) Well done Ming, and I didn't weep for long, (all of about one nanosecond) My kingdom for a fusion drive.
RAH

	18-03-1999 19:04									#69
	Increase Your PM Length

Man, talk about twins...
I'm still satisfied for now. On to the despotism challange. I'll try the one city challange again when somebody beats 1942. I think the roaring 20's is possible, but it is indeed time for a new challange.

	18-03-1999 20:55									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ming and RAH: congrats to both of you. I'm going to miss the taunting, however. (Are you both sure you can accept this equal status?)

Ming, I can't recall ever seen two gold together, much less with two other specials like that. How many restarts did it take to get that combo?

	18-03-1999 20:57									#71
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

ming/rah: congratulations.
Question: Why do you feel SOL and UN were important? In what way did they speed the launch? Also what type world and barbarians?

	19-03-1999 10:25									#72
	Put an end to popups!

Geofelt
Both SOL and UN are key to mine and Rahs strategy. SOL allows you to drop out of democracy for a turn, and demand tribute. The next turn, you are back in Democracy without any of that anarchy stuff. You only miss one turn of science this way. Second, the UN is also key. Later in the game I hate dropping out of democracy for even a turn because of the science lost. UN allows you to stay in democracy. Check with a small civ at the beginning of the turn and see if the hawks are in power. If they are, you can talk to the powerful civs and deny the cease fire, and they will then offer money. Without UN, you can't do this, and you must drop out of Democracy. After a few turns, they will sneak attack... repeat process.
Money is key to our strategy. You basically buy the space craft.
And again, small world, 7 civs (if they all appear), and restless for the barbs.
And Bird... in small worlds, you sometimes get a ton of mountains. In these cases, two gold happen all the time. I did indeed reset many times after checking out the space around me... For this one, I found this location after about 6 turns.
As far as equal goes... it beats being a loser. And I really want to try the despotism challange now. So this can wait until somebody beats us.

	20-03-1999 07:05									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This one city thing is very interesting.
I am by no means an expert player. It's 1957
and I have survived, for me that's good.
I also have HG, GL, ST, CO and Leo.
A temple, library, granery, marketplace, citywalls and colosseum.
I had a great start, on a river(7 river
squares, 5 hills and a mountain, mixed plains and grass, no specials).
I got a lot of techs early from huts but only one archer. The saving grace was getting gunpowder before everyone else. Really amazing to see the Zulus attack my mountain fortified veteran musketeer. I am in a constant state of war with 2 of the 3 other civs(I set 7 but only know of 3 others besides me), I allied with the Persians early and so far it has been a beneficial alliance.
I tried demanding tribute but all I got was war. I don't think anyone's getting to AC in this game. Not enough science, soon enough.
But it's been fun and the first game I've played in 6 months.
Nakin

	21-03-1999 21:58									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Nakin Tames,
Should've sold the temple & colosseum if you have ST.

I think many river squares help. You can make mini-special squares on rivers-forest, hills. Not that I can judge. Every time I think I'm about to win, I get attacked on multiple sides, delaying my spaceship production until too late.

	22-03-1999 12:57									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

AARGH !!!
After a lot of attempts I managed to do it in 1949and I thought it was a new record.
Then This morning (I haven't check this thread for a while) I'm ready to post it
and now I have just realized that Ming and Rah scored a new record.
Well, I'll try to beat them at despotism challange...

	22-03-1999 13:43									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, I started this mess, so I just had to have a try. And another. And another. And... you all catch the drift. So, I made it. Sort of. SS landed in 2071. Don't laugh.

Strange thing: The Americans buildt Apollo by 2010 or something, and had all tech by 2020, but they never buildt a single SS part. They were busy fighting the Japanese (thanks to my little greasing of their palms), so they never bothered enter the race.
Specials: Whale, fish, pheasant and wheat. Wonders: Col, HG, Copernicus, INC, ST are must-haves. Missed out Leo (most my NONE units were dead by then anyway due to raging hordes) or KRC. Buildt UN, probably an OK investment. Hoover (I desperately wanted a hydro plant, but had no rivers/mountains), most probably a waste. And Manhattan, when the Americans beat me to Apollo. I had SDI already, so why not?

But how cut 150 turns from the game? Two mined no-special mountains and a pheasant square were wasted trade-wise. And the city itself was founded on hills (that stinks majorly). It never grew past size 29. Next time, I'll finish before 2020.

C.

	22-03-1999 21:01									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Gambler... heh heh heh... Congratulations, that's a great score. Take a look at the other challange thread... you will see what you have to beat for despotism.
Cattulus
Never start on a hill... It sounds like you are playing the game in a normal fashion instead of concentrating on the key goal... SCIENCES. Building MP must have been a real waste of resourses... why not be building the many food caravans that will allow you to build a space ship part every turn?
And giving money away to start a war?
A better focus should cut many years off your last attempt.

	22-03-1999 21:01									#78
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Catullus,
Use your engineers. This applies to every game not just this one. Engineers should change your mountains to hills(unless you have a fort on them for defense) and even settlers could turn your pheasant to buffalo. In the end, buffalo w/farms, rr's out performs pheasant every time UNLESS the pheasant is on a river square; then the DEF bonus may cause you to keep it. If you are near rivers then use engineers to create hills on rivers. They will have a great DEF bonus+mines+trade from river.

	22-03-1999 21:07									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ming,
Aren't you supposed to be working now?

I often give money to the enemy to start a war, then demand tribute the same turn. Doesn't always work, but most of the time I'll get my investment back and then some.

Catullus,
Missed the starting on a hill thing. Yeah, don't do that. Start on a river square. Later you can turn the city square into a hill and the food/shield/trade will=plains but you get a defensive bonus.

	22-03-1999 21:28									#80
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Two more strikeouts this weekend. Got close once (had all the structurals built by 2020 and no one else had even started). One thing I've noticed is that my best attempts have all involved extensive goodie hut searches prior to settling the city. You never get barbarians until the city is founded, and once you settle the city it seems like half the huts contain them. This is such a notable difference that even if I find a good starting spot early on, I'll have the settler improve it while the other one continues hunting with the other units I've found.

	23-03-1999 07:59									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Heh, this is teaching me a lot.
Tried my second go at one city, definitly doing better.
As Bird said, and Ming also I believe, it pays to goodie hut before first city is built, while looking for a good city site.
This time I got a whale, buffalo and coal with six river squares. I also got six good non units(4 archers) before I started my city. By the way I always start as the Romans
since they go first(any white civ would do). And since I don't build a city right away I think that retards the AI cities as well, would have to check it out via the cheat menu. Even though I didn't start my city till 3200 BC the other civs didn't have more than two cities and I think three of them didn't start till after I built my city. Also since I had 6 good non-units, tribute was a dream.
I got 1000's from the other civs and my allies the Babalonians once gave me 450 as a gift "To our gracious allies".
For someone like me who is still learning the ins and outs of the game I think it would be easy to win with three cities. One capital and two say size 8 cities doing nothing but producing caravans to suppliment the capitol, with an occasional stint at producing a large amount of diplo-spys.
Nakin

	23-03-1999 13:04									#82
	Tired of ads?

Start on hills: Didn't really want to, but that was the only 4-special hub square around. I meant to start mining it before founding the city (press m for the first settler, b for the next), but I screwed up. And I stand by my mistakes. Engineers can transform city squares? I should have known.

Yes, I should have chopped down the pheasant forest. Stupid of me not to.

Manhattan just came to be. I was halfways to Apollo when the Americans started, so I thought I'd just let them build it. I did get an SS part a turn, more or less anyway. Buy a temple, switch, buy a module/component. Had some cash, you see. For the habitation module, I disbanded my NONE settler. A nice tribute to the trusty old pioneer, being the first to go to AC.

Next game: All squares should produce trade (coal only allowed exception). Must remember to build on/near river for hydro. More aggressive use of demanding tribute, bribe units if possible to increase power. Maybe try the SoL trick for tribute?

C.

	23-03-1999 19:28									#83
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Nakin Tames... yes, it would be easier to win with three cities instead of one... but what's the challange?
catullus... Go for it. I'll bet your next try is a success. It's only fitting since you started all of this.
Theben... Yes, I do work for a living, but that doesn't mean I can't take a short break and check this place out.
Bird... I use the goody hut openning strategy all the time. But in a single city game, I think it's even more important so you can find the best available city location.
And Gambler... after re-reading what I posted about your record, I hope you didn't take it wrong. Anybody that can do this challange deserves our full congratulations.
This is indeed a tough one, and proves that you have knowledge of all elements of the game. The record is one thing... but just doing it says a lot too.

	24-03-1999 10:35									#84
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

catullus: Don't get hung up on a hydro plant. If you have recycling, then a power plant will do. Its cheaper with less maintenance. If you build solar plant, you can sell the power/recycling to get over 60 pollution-free shields.

	24-03-1999 17:15									#85
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ming,
don't worry about your statement, if it had something wrong inside, well, my English isn't good enough to find it.
But you'd better be worried about your record, because I WANT TO BEAT IT !!! :-)

	24-03-1999 18:07									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Gambler (and everybody else)... go for the record. It would give me and rah a reason to try it again. Until then, it will be other challanges and MP for us. Good luck!

	25-03-1999 10:08									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ming,
The reason I said that on Monday was because we're both in the Chicago area-so same time zone-and I figured you'd guess I was at "work" as well. Monday I was at Apolyton for 8 hours straight. And I'm at "work" now, too.

	25-03-1999 10:27									#88
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Theben...
I should have checked your profile...
I thought you were giving me grief. But if you notice, many people post from work.
After dealing with some stupid idiot, or waiting on HOLD for somebody, there is nothing better then jumping to Apolyton to see what's new. Some days, it's the only enjoyment I can find. Where do you work?
I'm downtown on Michigan Ave.

	25-03-1999 05:37									#89
	Increase Your PM Length

I used to work in the Lyric Opera building on Wacker drive, but they transferred us all out to Deerfield, of all places (grrrr...).

	25-03-1999 11:03									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hey! I finally did it. Well, sort of.
Anyway my ship will land in 2075. Not too bad for my second attempt. Had a pretty good site with whale, buffalo and coal. A bottle neck that cut of all the other AI's but one(Sioux) and they were late bloomers. I'm starting to get it, but I think I had too much bad terrain, 4 mountains. Missed CO but got all the other necessaries. This is fast and challenging.
Nakin