15-08-2000 17:38									#1
	Damn, I Didn't Know This! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was playing an OCC game last night for probably the first time since I got MP. I had a lead, but not a tremendous one, and wanted to build Hoover's to prevent the ai from getting it. I was several techs away from electronics, however, and decided to start the only wonder available (Manhattan) in order to switch. I was careless and let too many shields build up before reducing production and was going to get Manhattan the next turn. What to do? I decided to switch to capitalization because I thought perhaps I'd be able to turn the production shields already in the box into gold. (I didn't think it worked that way, but what the heck....) Of course it doesn't work like that, but what I did discover is that after I researched electronics and switched from capitalization to Hoover's a few turns later, ALL the production shields that had been in the box when I first switched from Manhattan to capitalization REAPPEARED.

Was this common knowledge? If not, don't tell my MP group about this.
[This message has been edited by Bird (edited August 15, 2000).]

	15-08-2000 17:59									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Bird - this "feature" is obviously not universally known (since it surprised you ), but, speaking for myself, I've known about it for a long time. I don't think I've ever had occasion to use it, though...

	15-08-2000 18:10									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I knew about it and use it sometimes against the AI.

The real problem is what to do if you can't switch to Capitalization and all other available wonders are "less shields"-ones...

Carolus

	15-08-2000 18:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Come to think of it, I don't use it anymore.

One turn wonders.

Carolus

	15-08-2000 18:20									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It was common knowledge to me anyway, once I tried to rush-buy capitalism a few years back As for the problem of all the other wonders being fewer shields than you have stored up, I'll sometimes select settlers or something like that and then say, "never mind, I don't want the 50% shield loss" and keep building the completed wonder

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	15-08-2000 23:21									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If you are pre-building space ship parts by the wonder-instead method remember that you can switch to capitalism once you have 80 shields in the box. (or really 80 minus one turn's production...)

Ya know we all ought to hire a college intern some summer to consolidate all of this strategy stuff into a 200 page guide... (or maybe Possidente if he doesn't have a new job yet. )

	16-08-2000 00:33									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah! Why can't someone do that?

It should be a piece of cake downloading all the threads of interest and converting them to a word document. Or?

Heck, I can do the editing if someone sends me the word document! Then I just post the thing for feedback, revise it and post again and so on... It's like writing a paper for crying out loud!

Carolus

	16-08-2000 01:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have wondered from time to time if the threads were available from MarkG & DanQ en masse for editing... I would hate to go through and delete all of the extranious stuff that you get when you copy a thread.

	16-08-2000 02:00									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh well, guess I'm not so clever after all

CR, in general I agree -- "one turn wonders" involves less risk and provides more flexibility. But in this game I would have wasted a tremendous amount of production building freights b/c I was generating about 65 shields per turn at that point. Why waste 15 shields/turn on caravans? I also agree that there is rarely a need to do this kind of switch to capitalization late in the game, but it certainly was the right thing here. Live and learn.

Sten: you probably have lots of free time, so why hire a college intern... Of course, maybe CR, you and I should finish that MP game we started about a year ago.

	16-08-2000 02:15									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I still have that one around here somewhere!!

I have plenty of free time, I just can't get near the computer since Donie is updating the baby pictures on the website...

	16-08-2000 02:19									#11
	Tired of ads?

There have been attempts to write the "Apolyton Civ Guide", with the threads of distilled wisdom etc. The problem is there needs to be a locked thread, once the "Apolyton High Council" has approved the advice that is given. I nominate Sten as the Council Chairman!
Seriously, this is a great idea, as all the decent Strategy books are long out of print!

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SG (2)

	16-08-2000 02:26									#12
	Tired of ads?

I decline!!!

	16-08-2000 06:34									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I see your point Bird! So it is still useful after all.

Love the idea of continuing our game, was there not a couple BTW? "Blacktide is dead, long live Blacktide!"

Maybe even start a new one?

Hey Sten! Gotta a link to that web page??? Should I take a look in your profile?

Collecting the strategy tips can't be that much work, I've downloaded a bunch of the threads already. Being the tech wizard that I am I have problems getting them into word format, though...

The rest should be a walk in the park. [cough, cough] And the OCC chapter is already written! I say, hooray!!!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited August 15, 2000).]

	16-08-2000 06:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'd like to add my voice to the proposal to compile an "Apolyton Civ Guide". It would be in a locked thread with sticky status, a first port of call available to all-comers.

Now all we need are volunteers. Perhaps the formidable task could be eased by some agreed way of sharing the load eg on broad themes?

Edit: Crossover post - I see CR has done most of the work already. So all we need is someone to help him with converting HTML to Word doc format.
[This message has been edited by tonic (edited August 15, 2000).]

	16-08-2000 07:07									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Inca911's guide is a good start. We should probably work-up an outline first or it might end up as hap-hazard as this existing format. Then again, this free form periodic random argument thing is pretty fun and we wouldn't really want to have all the answers would we?



Wait a minute, weren't the barbs winning that Blacktide game? Or was it Scramblin' Fran Tarkington of the Vikings??

I'll email the website address to you, CR, and Bird and anyone else that wants the punishment of baby pictures - meant to do that a while ago.

	16-08-2000 09:07									#17
	Remove this text

The excellent guide that Paul (and helpers) has produced for OCC, could be a model for other areas of the game. Rather than expect somebody to trawl through thousands of archived posts and make a synopsis of them, it is better to let players write about aspects of the game that are of interest to them. Ming's cheat compilation is a good example.

The draft document could then be posted for discussion. Then a 1000 years later the final wisdom would be placed in a locked thread. (A time limit of a month?)

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SG (2)

	16-08-2000 16:53									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Amen brother SG (2)!

There is already a pretty good strategy guide to The Early Game, A beginner's guide to deity I think. OCC is already wrapped up by Paul, the cheats 'n tricks by Ming et al..

On the fine art of Demanding Tribute I propose Ming the Merciless as author. He should have plenty of time now that he doesn't need to chase posts to become a deity!

On Sleazing and ICSing DaveV is our man, a player with more cities and units than I have brain cells!

On the importance of Trade - Xin Yu, Adam Smith. Possibly assisted by DaveV!

On Diplo Games - John Barbarossa

And the human capital embodied in Arii, Carnide, markusf, Mark Everson, Matthew and Sieve Too?

Go to work, guys!!!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited August 16, 2000).]

	16-08-2000 17:07									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

On Psychological Warfare via the chat window - The Aussie Bunch.

Carolus

	16-08-2000 17:58									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

None of that ever goes on from us Aussies.

	16-08-2000 18:22									#21
	Put an end to popups!

you'd probably want one dealing with conquest /Bloodlust victories (vs AC/tech victories). Also a chapter on the Wonders, with reasons for when and when not to build each of them. Even the Eiffel Tower can be useful in certain situations (i found it useful in the Fundy OCC game anyway) Of course in senarios where the attitudes are reset every turn and score doesn't matter, it truely is a waste of resources.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	17-08-2000 23:36									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think you guys are onto something with this "Wisdom from the Forum" guide to civing. I hope you get it soon, because I have zulus killing me in one game, mongols in another, and alot of unhappiness in another.

I think alot of us that aren't up to diety (or emperor, or king) level would benefit from such a guide.

Good luck, and Godspeed

	18-08-2000 03:08									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't mind doing wonders.

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What if the Hokey-Pokey is really what its all about?

Contact me at cpoland@mail.win.org

	18-08-2000 20:01									#24
	Put an end to popups!

On the initial thread subject: I've found that in ver. 1.02 which I have installed on my laptop, the game applies the 50% shield penalty when switching to and from Capitalization. So in fact, a change to Capitalization and back to a new wonder once it becomes available reduces the accumulated shields to a mere 25%.

In ver. 2.42 which I run on my desktop, there's no shield penalty imposed on switching to and from Capitalization, and I've known about this trick and used it - sparingly - for quite a while.

Must get around to installing the patch onto the laptop one of these days.