14-08-2000 13:38									#1
	Trade Enter the AD-FREE zone

I like to trade once airport becomes available and send freight across the globe to small cities I've built near other civs. Do you believe that this is a late start? Are the benefits of trading at the beginning of a game better?

	14-08-2000 14:23									#2
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I imagine this will become a very large thread so I will get my three ha'p'orth in first...
The largest single advantage of trade is the hidden science bonus - when you make a trade route the initial gold bonus is matched in science beakers - this is by no means obvious until you start to look for it!
The other advantage of course is the ongoing trade arrows make unhappiness easier to control and increase your native research rate - hence the Super Science City and OCC strategies of getting three very early trade routes.
Good civin'

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	14-08-2000 18:57									#3
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Airports make it possible to have but one turn between completion of a freight unit and delivery on a distant continent. It is a good time to build lots of freight units and use the proceeds to build more airports and freight units.

In my opinion you should start building caravans much earlier. If you start delivering caravans to AI civilizations in the 1 AD to 1000 AD era you will see that a caravan can often yield more science than all your cities can produce in one turn. With a little luck you can get as much science as all your cities can produce in five or six turns. If you can, trade with AI civilizations that are Republics.

If you deliver lots of caravans you will have lots of money. That means you can afford to rush build stuff if you find yourself in a bind.

While the money is nice the big advantage is that the science bonus will give you a huge technological lead. If you get into a war you will lose far fewer units. Howitzers are rarely defeated by fortified pikemen.

Unless you can think of a really good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan.

	15-08-2000 05:15									#4
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Trade from the first minute you acquire the tech.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	15-08-2000 06:40									#5
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As you approach the discovery of trade, have your cities building units which can be switched to caravans as soon as the tech is researched.
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SG (2)

	15-08-2000 06:57									#6
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Yes you should send caravans ASAP.It may not seem worth it at first as returns are smaller but do it anyway.

You may want to do some self trading.1 caravan will give you 2 routes.If I'm isolated or on a large map and haven't found anybody I set up internal routes.

Internal trade can be fairly lucrative.Its a quantity over quality type thing.

I also do this in MP as maybe I don't want others to share in my trading business until some kind of alliance is established.
Of course my civs are always open for caravans.No tariffs,no worries
Just don't hang around for too long blocking traffic.

	15-08-2000 19:28									#7
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I usually find that by the time I've got airports, I've got enough of a lead on the AI that I don't really need to do much more trading. Usually by that point in the game, I've taken out most of the AIs cities and it is more hassle than it is worth to find a city that is looking for the freight you are trying to deliver. I've never really bothered with self-trade. It doesn't seem worthwhile to spend as many shields as a caravan costs for the relatively minor bonus you get. In the later stages of the game, I pretty much just use freight to rush build wonders.

	15-08-2000 20:00									#8
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Early caravans have great advantages to them, especially if sent by ship to another continent, this can provide a substanial boost in cash, science and trade. Airports in cunjuction with railroads can give you incredible ammounts of money and science. They are especially useful when playing against humans, less against the computer... well at least for me, they're usually dead long before the time of radio. I guess I'm like ming, vet crusaders and dippies

	16-08-2000 01:01									#9
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I must seem strange to everyone in this thread but I neglect to trade unless my Civ is bankrupt.

I spend my time building wonders and such.

In my mind the only two things a caravan/freight is good for are helping build a wonder and bailing you out of an economic crisis.

	16-08-2000 02:07									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

A caravan costs 50 shields to build.

Therefore as a rule of thumb it is worth the effort if it brings you over 50 gold plus 50 beakers as bonus.

You need only weigh the delay in (rush-)building other things against future trade route income - which is, unfortunately, the most difficult aspect of the game ...

At present my strategy for newly founded cities is:

[1] build two settlers to found two more cities if there is room (minimum overlap), then a third to improve the land;
[2] build 3 trade routes to my SSC;
[3] build a library and a marketplace, in that order.

(The SSC will not build any caravans itself, it will build all my wonders and rush-build improvements in between. One city - typically with little room to grow - will start sending food caravans to my SSC when the SSC gets to size 13.)

There will generally be no more caravans later by the same city, except possibly to help build wonders (typically cities with 13, 17 or 25 shields).

Military units (to maintain order) and temples are built only when needed, the SSC is supposed to help out here with Mike's Chapel and the Oracle (much underestimated!).

This is still wide open to perfection and modification, but I'm getting closer to AD 1800 with my spaceship (Deity, 125x80). Mostly under Communism btw.

- Rib -

	16-08-2000 05:04									#11
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Ok, I've lurked here long enough. I've been Civving for years (between wifely demands to stop or leave), and I've been a regular reader here for many months. With OCC, I've become newly addicted and my eyes have been opened to the wonders of trade.

When trying to compete informally in the fortnight challenges, I find that I can't seem to reach the 2turn/tech level that others do. I attribute that to fewer Caravans/freights as I seem to be right up there in wonder building, rushbuying, etc.

My question is whether it is worthwhile to rushbuild caravans, and secondarily, how does one build so many commodity caravans. After 3 or 4, I'm usually stuck with food only and only use them for wonder building.

	16-08-2000 05:31									#12
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Welcome, Phaedrus.

Regarding 2 turns per discovery. Are you giving most (if not all) of your science away to the AI civs? All of the AI civs? This is quite important in OCC, as there is a relationship between tech requirements and how far ahead you are in science. Other than that, are you building all your science improvements (library, Colossus, Copernicus, Isaac Newton's, university) and switching to Democracy (where you can set the science rate to 90 or even 100 percent).

New trade commodities slowly appear over time. I usually don't get more than 5 or 6 extra ones (after the initial 3) over the course of a game. Most of those come post industrialization.

	16-08-2000 06:11									#13
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Welcome again

About rushbuilding caravans, in OCC I rushbuild everything if I have the money for it, even food-caravans. Wait one turn to get shields in the box, buy the next (if there isn't enough shields-production to complete the item).

	16-08-2000 15:59									#14
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Welcome Phaedrus - another OCCer is always welcome (if only as another person I might perhaps be able to beat - there aren't that many! )
For my guess - the likely reason you can't reach 2 turns/advance is that you are relying on tax income not ally gifts to fund your city. As often as not we are running our OC at a tax deficit to maximise the science output, the coffers are kept full by regularly demanding gifts from our allies - the F3 key gets seriously worn by an OCC game.

Good civin'

ps - added in edit - and don't forget the important 'happy improvements' Marketplace, Bank & (not always) Stock Exchange!!
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited August 16, 2000).]

	16-08-2000 22:04									#15
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Thank you for the welcome and welcome advice. I do wear out the F3 key in my OCC games and I try to keep science as high as possible all the time. I think where I get behind is in gifting techs to all. Don't get me wrong, I give away everything until they start asking for mobile warfare, advanced flight or robotics or something that can get me killed in 1 turn. In every game I've played however, take OCC#14 for example, there is always at least one AI that won't make peace unless I give them big bucks and I know they just plan on attacking next turn anyway. It's just give me money or give me war.

I noticed some of you got allied with all the AIs in that game and kept it that way. I still don't see how.

	16-08-2000 22:55									#16
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Agressive exploration is important in OCC. The faster you find the AIs, the better the chance of allying with them. If you let them make contact with each other first, they will often go to war - and an AI will not ally with you if they are at war with one of your allies.

	16-08-2000 23:30									#17
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Well people, I just finished my first One City game.

My Goblins never formed an aliance or gave away tech, were at war with most tribes most of the time, didn't get Copernicus (the Zulus - all rivers - beat us to it, building it the same turn they got Astronomy), and had a mediocre starting position (only 3 specialties: 1 whale, 1 fish, 1 pheasant, mostly plains; no river; no nearby villages).

We landed on AC in 1979 just ahead of the Zulus who made their ship too large. We had all the tech, too, and plenty of spare food caravans left (never bothered to count them).

- Rib -

	17-08-2000 00:07									#18
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I rarely use airports for trade. Am I doing things wrong? If I airlift a trade unit, it won't move or establish a trade route that turn. If I move by ship right into a port city, I can advance the freight and establish the route.

The airport thing is a real nuisance for one tile island cities. Island cities I do build airports on, but one tile islands can only be traded using transports.

Is this a bug? Is there a patch? I'm v2.42.

Also, can someone direct me to a description of Adam Smith's Infinite Trade "Cheat"?

Finally, I don't think your science bonus from caravans is wasted if you are nearly completed your beakers. Last night I completed about a dozen freights, with the hope of getting an advance mid-turn. Once the beakers got close to the end of the bar, they just stopped. Then next turn, a new size 1 city with 5 trade came up first (announcing harbour built) and poof, I had my advance. So like extra food and shields beyond the box, its just wasted.

	17-08-2000 00:18									#19
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Units which travel by air are only available for use on the next turn. For one square islands you must have a transport on hand to "sleep" the freight and allow it to re-enter the city. Sail one square out and pop it in! Yes - a pain!
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SG (2)

	17-08-2000 00:25									#20
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Mad Viking:

If you are on a one continent world and you can connect all your cities with railroads airports are slower but less boring than railroads. On large multicontinent worlds airports are far superior to ships if you wish to move a freight units half way around the world.

With the Macintosh version a one island city requires a transport in the way you describe.

Excess flasks are wasted. Check your status before delivering a caravan or freight unit.

	17-08-2000 09:12									#21
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Personally, I like trade. Those extra trade arrows come in very handy, it allows you to increase your luxuries to the point where you are getting We Love the _____ Day! and then your city grows nice and fast, especially under Democracy. And I agree with building internal routes if you don't have a neighbour close by, and in MP games. What I also like is if I get a city that will build infinite caravans. It is rare but it does happen, usually with Hides. Just keep rolling them out.

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Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

	17-08-2000 19:35									#22
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Mad Viking:
I bumped the Repeated Commodity Trade Strategy thread for you.

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	19-08-2000 00:17									#23
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Another way to deal with trading with one tile island cities is to airlift in a frieght and re-home it to that city, then airlift it back out next turn. Some consider re-homing freights a cheat because you can't do it from the regular menu but have to click on the unit in the city screen to get the pop-up menu to do it.