01-07-2001 01:48									#1
	Communism and whatever else Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here is your communism thread. Leave the barbarian thread for barbarian posts. Talk about whatever I don't care.

	01-07-2001 18:43									#2
	Support Apolyton

if communism gov, you should earn the most money. i mean, u take all your people´s...

the bad sides should be trade, science, and happiness (everything else in other words)

	01-07-2001 19:47									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

no. you swhould be able to make communism work.

cause it rules.

	01-07-2001 19:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

who said it shouldn´t work? i just say it´s affection in civ is a little weird - you almost don´t get any money though you have 100% taxes...hmmm...

	02-07-2001 07:44									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

the civ2 team were anti communist i think it should not give you alot of tax money though because a communist system is a moneyless economy

	02-07-2001 07:49									#6
	Support Apolyton

in communism, you make all production devices belong to the state. that means the state has total control over everything that is produced.

in which system do you think you can control most production?

i mean, if democracy in civ II is supposed to mean a mixed economic system, or a market economy, the only thing you should be able to build as a ruler, is military, hospitals and so on.

coz the other things is done by corporations and not by you, get it?

	02-07-2001 09:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

no in communism all means of production belong to the people who reap the benifits of their own labor, in socialism all production meathods are owned by the state

	02-07-2001 09:20									#8
	Suffering from ads?

state = people

socialism and communism are almost the same, they´re all sprung from the marxism.

here in sweden we have socialism, we have have a socialdemocratic party as government, just like ie. UK. do all our production methods belong to the state then? no...infact, only about 27% of our GNP is stately. the rest 73% is PRIVATE.

but in Sovjet, everything was produced by the state. the whole point with communism is, as you may not know, that noone shall live through another´s work. so the state takes everything and spreads the money out. this is called planned economics.

the point here, is that a a communistic state takes all the money, and because of that, since you are the state, you should get more money than under no other gov!
i dont want to have to repeate this.

	02-07-2001 10:01									#9
	Support Apolyton

whats pretty dumb, because since there are and never has been a state that has reached a state worthey of the name communist, there is no way to be sure which way it will be actually implimented. in my ideal of communism the people will decide what they want there lot to make and they will provide themselves with everything they need (similiar to maoism), and the extra goods they dont need will be sold to other communitys for porfit, to buy other communiys goods..

	02-07-2001 10:09									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

ummm yeah, it would be nice...

the reason it don´t work is that people can never decide what they want collectively. 51%decides over 49%.

the only true freedom comes with libertarianism.

	02-07-2001 11:00									#11
	Put an end to popups!

yeah, also communiy's can combine in a trade of

-less work per person
-more profit

-less individuality and personal freedom..

	02-07-2001 11:06									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oy...

the USSR was stuck in a sort of state directed capitalism that Lenin began as the New Economic Program to jumpstart the economy in the 20s. No where did Marx say that the means of production would be controlled by the STATE, he said they would be controlled by the PEOPLE!

Also just because a party calls itself Socialdemocratic doesn't mean it is. I mean the UK Labour party has drifted to the center-right in many ways, and most European Social Democratic parties have at least gone toward the center, and ALL of them have dropped most mentions of Marx in their doctrine.

Communism in it's Marxist sense can't work fully so long as people are primarily individualistic and motivated by personal economic concerns

	02-07-2001 11:30									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i know the labour parties have drifted to the right. but officially we´re socialists. and ancient´s talk of "the state own´s everything" wasn´t even true during the 70´s in here.

today, sweden has still one of the most generous well-fare systems in the world. so i still consider us to be socialists. marketsocialists.


for some people communism´s fine, not all is driven only by money.

quote: No where did Marx say that the means of production would be controlled by the STATE, he said they would be controlled by the PEOPLE!

ehhm, he wanted the state (which meant all the pople, to own the production methods). he meant that, private owning of ie. fabrics, turn the workers into slaves for the owner. their sweat, his money. state and people often means the same thing, you know. the state is like a big mama who controls every kid and makes sure all get enough candy.

	03-07-2001 00:10									#14
	Remove this text

And *ahem* which of Marx's essays was that a quote from?

Probably NOT any of the ones that said that the (then) modern idea of a state was deeply flawed and contridictory.

However, yes Sweden is the most generous welfare state in the world, and yes, it's a hybrid, Social Market is the right term I think.

	03-07-2001 12:49									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk in communism, you make all production devices belong to the state. that means the state has total control over everything that is produced. in which system do you think you can control most production? i mean, if democracy in civ II is supposed to mean a mixed economic system, or a market economy, the only thing you should be able to build as a ruler, is military, hospitals and so on. coz the other things is done by corporations and not by you, get it?

there is no state in communism. it dies out in the process of building it. all that is left is society.
uncle, i suggest you stop your crusade against an utopian concept that never existed.

	03-07-2001 13:10									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i aint crusading against an utopia. im pointing out how uneffective marxism has proven to be. and it is how communism has worked out in reality, not the utopia, that should represent the communism in Civ.

	03-07-2001 13:35									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

oh jesus christ
you say you are libertarian
do you consider any of the western societies today to be really true?
how would you label them? i mean, really.....
do people in parliament really represent you?
do they speak for the 'people'?
is there a 'debate' in the society?
is decision-making transparent and objective?
as you see, an idea should not be confused with its practical execution

	06-07-2001 01:09									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A solution to whether Communism works:

Have 4 choices;

Real Communism (How it worked out in Russia,China)
Capitalist-Communism (Nowadays China) [Limited Free business but Communist ideals and programs]
Pure Communism (Marx's dream)
Socialism (Norway) [No one saves money; the government supports the old by taking all the young's money]

	06-07-2001 01:13									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

´should there be 4 different Communism govs in Civ3?

	06-07-2001 05:38									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

hmm me and uf really disagree on communism/socialism..

	06-07-2001 11:31									#21
	Communism & Socialism Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Communism is really an advanced form of socialism. 'The state' and 'the people' basically mean the same thing. I think socialism is just the thought of people performing actions that help each other (basically social ideals will be valued). Communism calls for more economic controls. In particular, under communism some body, say the state, must predict resource usage (socialism doesn't really require that resources be allocated)...

One other thing that people are confused about is money in socialism or communism. Having communism, for example, doesn't mean that money doesn't exist--it always will. What happens under socialism and communism is that money is not valued much. What is really valued under these systems is social principles, whereas under capitalism money is valued more than social ideals. For instance, under capitalism a person with more money is valued more than another (a rich person is valued more than a poor person); under socialism both should be the same.

In theory, communism is the most efficient. The fact you predict resource usage (ahead of time) and allocate production means that it is more efficient. The problem is that humans can't predict anything right now. We can't even predict the weather to a high degree of accuracy (I'm talking about 85%+ not your 50/50 predictions ).
----------

Back to Civilization ...

The thing is that I'm not sure if the game should be using the flawed communism of USSR or using the communism that the theory calls for. Regardless of which is used, I think the game should basically force you to pick one of these in later game and stick with it (ie. heavy penalty for switching between communism and capitalism).

KoalaBear33

	06-07-2001 12:25									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk ´should there be 4 different Communism govs in Civ3?

nah, just one, involving ritual sacrifice of small children and satanistic sans-quilote rituals