02-07-2001 23:43									#1
	kamikaze unit Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

i think a kamikaze plane would be a cool special unit for the japanese. could only be produced under nationalist gov.

	03-07-2001 00:07									#2
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Yeah that would be good

how much destruction does it cause for a plane to fly into a ship?

If it manages to destroy it completely, or sink it, then building the plane needs disadvantages to keep the balance

two suggestions: the citizen could become upset? or there is a 50/50 chance the plane will not hit the ship, or won't hit an area of the ship that causes much damage?


I think it would add a lot of fun and tense to the game too

"Oh crap, a kamikaze!?"

yep I like it

	03-07-2001 00:18									#3
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So, in other words, a cheap cruise missile

I'm not a big fan of the idea of unique civs or units either way. Just sounds a bit presumptious/racist to me.

	03-07-2001 02:18									#4
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I am against this as a seperate unit... however it could be a good option for All Air Units to "Crash" or "Fight" when they 'bump into' an enemy.

	03-07-2001 06:11									#5
	Human Torpedo Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Has anyone ever heard of the 'human torpedo'? It was used by the Japanese during WWII. I came across this at the Japanese War Shrine website and then did an Internet search to find more information. It was basically a big torpedo with a place for a pilot built into it. The pilot had to lie down, of course. I can't remember how they were launched, though. From a ship? I think that must have been it. A man who was training to pilot one of these things wrote his memoirs and he talked about how he prepared himself psychologically for the final mission. One after the other his friends got in these things and were shot towrds targets. Luckily for him the war ended before he had to take his turn. I also read that the British and some other European countries were using a human torpedo but it wasn't made for suicide missions like the Japanese version. A couple of soldiers would sit on top of this 'torpedo' (the picture I saw had people sitting on top. I don't know if there was a model people could get into) and sneak up on ships to plant explosives. I read one story about how the British captured an Italian (I think) crew after they had planted bombs. While the ship's officers were talking to the prisoners one of the Italians said, "By the way, there's a bomb on this ship and it's going to explode very soon." BOOM! Too late. I read that a lot of these torpedo guys got nailed on their missions.

	03-07-2001 06:24									#6
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hopefully not all units ever used throughout history will be added to civ 3, it would become too cumbersome

	03-07-2001 10:12									#7
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Suicidal units are not regular units per se. Those Japanese kamikaze pilots were no more than kids with a few hours of flight training. Any country with the right mind will not generate suicidal units. It's only in a place such as WWII Japan where the population was so thoroughly brainwashed could this happen. Japanese soldiers and even civilians were told to kill themselves to avoid capture. This shows what kind of crackpots were running that government.

	03-07-2001 10:33									#8
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quote: Any country with the right mind will not generate suicidal units. It's only in a place such as WWII Japan where the population was so thoroughly brainwashed could this happen

as mentioned before, the productions of these units WOULD require a nationalistic government. And under nationalism, a lot of people gets brainwashed.

a really cool thing would be to use these units on special targets. If a foreign civ is about to finish a wonder, you may just send some kamikaze´s to the city, select "try to hit city improvement" and then "wonder under production" or something. Haha, this would be awesome.

	03-07-2001 11:17									#9
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i like the idea of trying to destroy the wonder being built

	03-07-2001 12:06									#10
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why not just launch the torpedo with out the man strapped on?

	03-07-2001 12:17									#11
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cause the kamikaze´s are cooler. beside´s there has to be some positive sides with kamikazes, or else the japanes wouldn´t have used them.

	03-07-2001 12:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by ancient why not just launch the torpedo with out the man strapped on?

Are you referring to the European torpedos? Maybe it could get into a shipyard easily without being noticed and let the crew sabatoge specific ships. It was the same for the Japanese torpedo. The pilot would steer the torpedo to some specific target. It was a kind of stealth weapon.

	03-07-2001 16:06									#13
	Re: Human Torpedo Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Anatolia I read one story about how the British captured an Italian (I think) crew after they had planted bombs. While the ship's officers were talking to the prisoners one of the Italians said, "By the way, there's a bomb on this ship and it's going to explode very soon." BOOM! Too late. I read that a lot of these torpedo guys got nailed on their missions.

OFF TOPIC
There was a special corps in Italy, during WWII (but with some roots on WWI missions, too).
The main weapon was called SLC (Siluro a Lenta Corsa) roughly translated as "Slow Run Torpedo", but nicknamed "pig".

It was deployed near enough to the target by others ships or specially equipped submarines.
The two people crew of subs (frog men) had the mission to drive the SLC to the enemy harbour, avoid patrolling ships, cut or avoid protective net usually put to defense the ships by common torpedo and reach the target.
They disembark from the SLC, mined the enemy ship using magnetic mines (secondary weapons they had), then detach the "nose" of the SLC that was full of explosive and fixed it to the skull of the main target (usually a battleship or cruiser).
Their missions where usually heroic to said the least, and usually very difficult to achieve, but too few to change the war end.
Their main war succes was the attack of Alessandria of Egypt, where they damaged the battleships Valiant and Queen Elizabeth and two others ships.

The quote you mention is about that attack, when the italian sub De La Penne was captured and imprisoned on the battleship it had mined, to force him to tell where the mine was or die in the explosion. He waited until the last minute to speak to the british captain, saving himself, his comrade and the british crew from the direct blast. The ship sunked on the low harbour bottom, and was repaired after some months.
/OFF TOPIC

Yes, I agree we cannot reproduce any military unit of the past. Kamikaze by itself wasn't a succesful weapon, just a way to introduce "smart bombing" when precision bombs wheren't as available as determined and religius inspired pilots.

	04-07-2001 16:58									#14
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I remember reading about the Russian dogmine, where they trained a dog to run towards tanks and sit under them and then the bomb went off. Very effective idea, the dogs did exactly that, ran to the tank and blew up. However they were trained on Russian tanks, and destroyed Russian tanks, therefore totally and utterly shooting themselves in the foot!

	04-07-2001 19:42									#15
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damn smart dogs !! seems like they learnt too fast...

	05-07-2001 03:51									#16
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Theoretically, one could create kamakaze planes in Civ2. You just make a bomber and set it so it disappears after attacking (like missiles). You could make it only available when you have a technology which you can't research or trade and give it to the Japanese. I think it would be a cool addition to the WW2 world scenario.

	05-07-2001 05:20									#17
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I disagree with this type of unit strongly.

Remeber a "unit" is not a plane, or a ship. Kamikazees have never been used on the scale of entire air wings or bigger. (A unit in modern times would be somewhere areound a brigade or division + support equipment, and infrastructure to build replacment gear.) That's lot to use in one run. I don't like cruise missle units for the same reason. Instead I would give bombers and some ships an extra long range, reduced strength bombard.

	05-07-2001 05:25									#18
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and nuclear is one single unit. yet´s in there. kamikasez would be cheap, easy-to-use units for the japanese. most of the reason i like it is that it would look cool graphically. and if they´re gonna have civ-specific units, they should have one for each age.

	05-07-2001 10:28									#19
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Cheap? No, it costs the same as a regular fighter unit. Easy-to-use? Yeah, but so does a regular fighter unit.

It's also utterly useless. Imagine a bunch of kids flying fighter planes whose controls they weren't even very familiar. Half was lost on the way. Among those who got to the target(s) most got destroyed by AA fire. And whatever left just crashed into their target(s) without much effect at all.

BTW it's not a nationalist government. It's a militarist government.

	05-07-2001 11:32									#20
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quote: if they´re gonna have civ-specific units, they should have one for each age.

So what exactly would they give the Zulus for the modern age or the Americans for the ancient age?

If you were to only have one civ-specific unit for all ages (which is the case in Civ3) the samurai would be a much cooler and important unit than the kamikazee unit. This all to say if the Japanesse will even be in the game. I sure hope they're in because I love destoying them in Civ2 (same reason why I like to destroy the Germans, WW2).

	05-07-2001 15:01									#21
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TW: that´s were they gonna use their imagination. besides, i´ve already said i don´t think americans should be playable from the beginning, but to be born only if the English split.

the reason i want 4 specific units for each civ (one per age) is that the games can be quite predictable - ie. the germans keep peaceful until they develope their Blitz Tanks etc.

UR: nationalist govs almost always become violent. under nationalism, the civ brainwashes the soldiers to do anything. just look at Germany in WWII. how could so many people become evil suddenly?

	05-07-2001 15:23									#22
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk besides, i´ve already said i don´t think americans should be playable from the beginning, but to be born only if the English split.

UF: That's not really fair. With that reasoning, the English and Vikings should only be born if the Germans split. And the French and Italians come from a split within the Roman empire. You see my point?

P.S. I hate the idea of a kamikaze unit and it wouldn't function for most nationalistic/militaristic governments. The japanese kamikaze pilots sacrificed themselves based on the japanese society and culture and a willingness to "die for the emperor". There were no such tactics used by the Nazis and for good reason, none of the SS would have acquiesced. They would have flown their planes over to occupied territory and surrendered (much like the Iraqi pilots did in the Gulf War).

	05-07-2001 15:34									#23
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk UR: nationalist govs almost always become violent. under nationalism, the civ brainwashes the soldiers to do anything. just look at Germany in WWII. how could so many people become evil suddenly?

Sorry to disagree, but we should consider that during wars some people become evil, no matter if under nationalist gov or not:
we know bad stories about Allied soldiers during WWII campaign in Italy, or USA forces in Vietnam... sure they wheren't under a nationalistic gov, AFAIK.
Kamikaze where the expression of a cultural (religious) aspect of Japan, not a "special unit" by its own common meaning. Suicidal terrorist that drive trucks or boat full of explosive to hit enemy aren't really different.

Under a "religious nationalism" or whatever Civ III will have as political/cultural naming, we can suppose to have "suicidal attack" order available to any military unit.
SMAC already have "autodestruction", so it'll not be a "first time" feature, you see.
Not sure it'll be worth the hassle, but...

	05-07-2001 15:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim UF: That's not really fair. With that reasoning, the English and Vikings should only be born if the Germans split. And the French and Italians come from a split within the Roman empire. You see my point?

French actually originated from the germanic tribe the Franks ...

The Germans are the forerunners of most of European tribes... It was the Roamns that kept the Barbarians (Germanic Tribes) at bay for so long, but finally they won out and re took Europe from the Romans ....


Russians are now beleived to be descendants of Vikings too , so that deletes another tribe....

How far back do you wanna go before we realise all tribes are basically Noah descendants and therefor civ should start with just one civ ...

	05-07-2001 15:56									#25
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quote: Russians are now beleived to be descendants of Vikings too , so that deletes another tribe....

this sound pretty astonishing to me. That way, all scandinavians would contain Slavic blood, and we certainly don't look like Slavics. I'm pretty sure we´re a North-germanic tribe, we´re quite similar today...to the German's and English. Maybe you're thinking of the Finnish-Uralic?

Man, my english is horrible today...

	05-07-2001 16:02									#26
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Noah?!? Don't you mean Lucy the missing link of Cro-Magnon fame?

Anyway, the Franks very well might have been of Germanic descent but, inspite of the country being called France, the people living in France are by no means decendents of Germanic tribes. They're good ol' Latin based people (Gauls if you will).

And even though there has been some recent talk here about Russians being the spawn of the Vikings, it doesn't really make any sense. The eastern Slavs had a definite presence in western Russia as early as 600 AD. And by 1000, Russia was an established "country". Although the Vikings did indeed trade and pillage extensively in this region, there is no reason to disregard the peoples already living there. Plus, the Scandanavian languages are about as close to Russian (or Slavic languages) as they are to Arabic.

Point taken about suicide truck drivers but, again, I stand by my conviction. Suicide troops are not a government related phenomenom. They are based on local culture/religion.

	05-07-2001 16:20									#27
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that´s right, i don´t wanna be a russian!

fittstim (nice book, eh? ): ofcourse a hardcore-nationalistic government can cause people to die for they country in suicidal assaults. with the right typ of propaganda, combined with extreme hard conditions and powerty, the government can make people do almost anything.

the reason Americans died in 'Nam were propaganda and culture, plus a drastic diverse in governments, (capitalism and communism), something i also would like to see in the game.

i'm not saying that any government could do this. i'm just saying that i would like to see kamikaze´s as the japanese modern-age civ-specific unit, available only in a nationalistic gov, and after a specific culture treshold. i mean, if each civ has an unique unit for each age (and that´s better than only one unique unit, for obvious reasons), wouldn´t kamikaze´s would be the coolest modern-age option?

Last edited by Juggernaut on 05-07-2001 at 16:30

	05-07-2001 16:31									#28
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Sverige till EM-final!!!

Kamikazes might be cool until some lame AI controlled civ starts using them on your unsuspecting cities/units. At least with bombers, cruise missiles and nukes, you had the option to build a city improvement which would negate the threat. What could justifiably combat both a suicide truck driver AND a kamikaze pilot? Hmmm, maybe it's time to create a "Langley" or "FBI" city improvement. Any suicide unit would have a chance of being detected/stopped otherwise it's lights out... Plus, the population should become more unhappy for a couple of turns after a suicide unit reaps it's damage.

Those are just ideas but it doesn't mean that I like the idea of suicide units.

	05-07-2001 18:09									#29
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quote: Originally posted by fittstim Sverige till EM-final!!! Kamikazes might be cool until some lame AI controlled civ starts using them on your unsuspecting cities/units. At least with bombers, cruise missiles and nukes, you had the option to build a city improvement which would negate the threat. What could justifiably combat both a suicide truck driver AND a kamikaze pilot?

Erh fittstim, I wasn't very clear about my point on "suicidal units".

I wrote

quote: Kamikaze where the expression of a cultural (religious) aspect of Japan, not a "special unit" by its own common meaning. Suicidal terrorist that drive trucks or boat full of explosive to hit enemy aren't really different. Under a "religious nationalism" or whatever Civ III will have as political/cultural naming, we can suppose to have "suicidal attack" order available to any military unit.

It seems very similar to your

quote: Suicide troops are not a government related phenomenom. They are based on local culture/religion.

I added "political" to "cultural" because a democratic gov can hardly support a "suicidal mission" culture... if not calling it "heroic act"

My reference to SMAC "self destruction" command speak for itself. Did you played SMAC? If not, let me clarify that you can command "selfdestruction" of every unit, resulting in a blast that can damage surrounding units (the eight tiles around, I mean).

The damage provoked wasn't great, more like an artillery bombardment (in SMAC sense).
Balancing the damage vs. unit cost and unit regular attack is the most difficult part. I never used this feature in SMAC, if not for sake of testing it, but keeping it in CivIII can be a very small effort.

	05-07-2001 18:32									#30
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk this sound pretty astonishing to me. That way, all scandinavians would contain Slavic blood, and we certainly don't look like Slavics. I'm pretty sure we´re a North-germanic tribe, we´re quite similar today...to the German's and English. Maybe you're thinking of the Finnish-Uralic?

Not exactly sure but i rembered seeing some documentary on TV a while back about how the Vikings had crossed as far as the Black sea via rivers and such.. they even had a reenactment to show ho it was posislbe , they apparently made rollers from trees and put the long ship on them to get from river to river !!

They apparanetly are the forerunners of the people known as the Rus ....

With interbreeding with the asian tribes to the south the new tribes of russia probably came about..

Sorry i cant remeber more detail...


And the gauls were never a roman people, they may have been conquered by them but they werent roman... so once again the french ar enot descendants of Rome, after the fall of rome, the gauls were integrated into the Frank tribe... IIRC