03-07-2001 11:53									#1
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i think a GREAT renessaince tech would be the LIBERALISM. it would :

- provide more happiness, science, and money.
- spread to to other countries. causing civs with monarchy and despotism unhappy.
- allow the construction of JOHN LOCKE`S COMMON SENSE, which would be an equality to the Adam Smith wonder. JOHN LOCKE`S COMMON SENSE would make increase trade payoff by 150%. and make it harder to switch to nationalism later in the game. this will cause the player to at this point choose a line for the rest of the game
- allow the construction of PRINTING PRESSES. increases science in a city with 150%

Last edited by Juggernaut on 03-07-2001 at 12:03

	03-07-2001 11:58									#2
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thats dumb; make a scenerio if you want it

	03-07-2001 13:50									#3
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well, since liberalism is one of the most influencal economic systems ever made, and the thought behind USAīs birth, itīs unaccurate to consider it dumb.

	03-07-2001 13:53									#4
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk well, since liberalism is one of the most influencal economic systems ever made, and the thought behind USAīs birth, itīs unaccurate to consider it dumb.

precisely the reason why it is

no but really, should it also imply increased mortality rate, increased polution?

	03-07-2001 14:15									#5
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dunno about mortality, why should it?

increased polution, why not.

it must reflect reality all the time, thatīs whatīs make it fun.

	03-07-2001 14:26									#6
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Hmmm...the invention of the printing press is part of what led to the growth of "Liberalism" as you put it, not the other way around.

	03-07-2001 14:39									#7
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i didnīt mean the printing presses technically, i meant that the freedom of speech and expressing your opinions, were encouraged by the revolutional ideas of liberalism in the 16th century. and to symbolize this the improvement could be a printing press.

	03-07-2001 15:00									#8
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk dunno about mortality, why should it? increased polution, why not. it must reflect reality all the time, thatīs whatīs make it fun.

well, how about laissez faire economy and its coal mines for minors?

plus, liberal sprinkling of colonies over the world, 'ethnically cleansing' indigenous population? exterminating herds of buffalos? you name it, they did it...

	03-07-2001 15:38									#9
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well, was it better when they had to pay high taxes from which themselves didnīt get some benefits at all? and didnīt even had the right to vote, but were gonna pay taxes?

besides, liberalism isnīt just about US. take french revolution for example. part of their courage come from the american independence.

what colonies have to do with liberalism is beyond my understanding, the liberalism made them become more than colonies.

besides, this isnīt a matter of morality and "good or bad". itīs a matter of important events in modern history, and which should be picked out and translated to Civ. if nationalism is in, i think the liberalism should. for the sake of balance.

Last edited by Juggernaut on 03-07-2001 at 15:45

	03-07-2001 20:39									#10
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I think people are mistaking the liberalism of today with the 1700s liberalism. Republicans and Democrats today are both very liberal by the original liberalism standards. The fact that neither wants a monarchy says as much without getting into details

	03-07-2001 20:51									#11
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I don't know if anybody here made that mistake.

	03-07-2001 23:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk they had to pay high taxes from which themselves didnīt get some benefits at all? and didnīt even had the right to vote, but were gonna pay taxes?

If your talking about the US before independence you have been misguided by exaggeration. Many could vote, and they paid less taxes than the average British citizen.


On the game side of it, I agre with KrazyHorse, I think liberalism is more a consequence than a cause for change. The fact that the printing press was around led to greater scientific thought and the exchange of ideas. Consider the impact that has on the game mechanics as the "Age of Liberalism".

For the same reason I don't like Industrial Revolution as a tech. I would rather have it called something less broad.

	03-07-2001 23:36									#13
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I just like the idea of common sense being a wonder of the world...

	03-07-2001 23:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch For the same reason I don't like Industrial Revolution as a tech. I would rather have it called something less broad.

Yeah...the Industrial Revolution was a consequence of technology, not a technology itself. What about Division of Labour as a tech? Requires Railroads and Banking like in Civ2.

	03-07-2001 23:57									#15
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well, it may be a consequence, but one with great impact. and one of such historic importance it should be implemented in Civ III IMMEDIATELY!

	04-07-2001 03:01									#16
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liberals.

pah.

	04-07-2001 13:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX liberals. pah.

like i said, this isnīt a matter of if one personally not like it. in the real world i donīt like nuclear or nationalism either, but itīs cool in the game.

	04-07-2001 15:34									#18
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I think it would be better the other way round. The tech would be printing, leading to the printing press improvement. Any city which built a printing press would have more unhappy people under "restrictive" governments but some cultural and scientific benefits. Under more liberal governments the unhappiness penalty would be reduced or finally removed. I wish more techs worked like this, so that the renaissance or industrial revolution occurs when a certain number of cities have built the requisite improvements, not when someone researches a tech they then fail to implement.

	04-07-2001 15:43									#19
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thatīs a really god idea and with the PRINTING tech, the construction of JOHN LOCKE`S COMMON SENSE would be allowed.

	04-07-2001 20:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk well, it may be a consequence, but one with great impact. and one of such historic importance it should be implemented in Civ III IMMEDIATELY!

Whatever. If something is merely a social consequence of technology, then it shouldn't be hard-wired into the game; It should arise as part of a more complex array of interactions.

	04-07-2001 20:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk thatīs a really god idea and with the PRINTING tech, the construction of JOHN LOCKE`S COMMON SENSE would be allowed.

You know, just because you like Locke doesn't mean that he should be in the game. The benefits of "Liberalism" are already modelled by the availability of a switch to democratic government.

	04-07-2001 20:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Haphazard I just like the idea of common sense being a wonder of the world...

Only problm with common sense is that it isnt as common as most would think

	04-07-2001 21:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You know, just because you like Locke doesn't mean that he should be in the game. The benefits of "Liberalism" are already modelled by the availability of a switch to democratic government.

did i ever say i liked him? i just think itīs a cool wonder. i like wonders. i like to be innovative. do you think Sid likes the Manhattan Project just because he put it in the game?

	04-07-2001 21:54									#24
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i hate the wonders , i wish they were all out !!!

	05-07-2001 06:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk thatīs a really god idea and with the PRINTING tech, the construction of JOHN LOCKE`S COMMON SENSE would be allowed.

Apologies uncle_funk, but for once I think KH has not been disparaging enough of a silly idea. "Common sense" is not a technology or a wonder. If it was so common, it's highly doubtful it could have been invented.

Furthermore, John Locke did not in any way "discover" common sense - he supported a humanist and idealistic view of human nature and politics that developed into classical liberalism. The political and economical effects (improved productivity, reduced corruption) of the rationalist/liberal revolution in philosophy are well-represented by the "Democracy" form of government, so I don't see that we need another technology or form of government to achieve the same thing.

	05-07-2001 06:24									#26
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iīm reffering to the fact that Lockeīs ideas were called "common sense", noth that he should have invented the common sense or something.

besides, the liberal ideas had great impact all over the world at this time. iīm just saying that itīs a very relevant peice of history that would have been interesting to have in the game.

	06-07-2001 00:56									#27
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Liberalism seems too abstract to be a wonder or a tech... possibly a government suboption that would allow your people free speech or not?

Free Speech- +50% happiness
No Free Speech- -50% crime (there has to be some sort of bonus.)

	06-07-2001 03:38									#28
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YOU DONT LIKE NATIONALISM?

faith in your country must suck.

i happen to like sweeden (or sweden, i've seen it both ways).

vacationed there a few times.

ANYWAY...

why dont you like nationalism, and the will to die for your nation and it's ideals?

	06-07-2001 03:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX YOU DONT LIKE NATIONALISM? faith in your country must suck. i happen to like sweeden (or sweden, i've seen it both ways). vacationed there a few times. ANYWAY... why dont you like nationalism, and the will to die for your nation and it's ideals?

it's sw-e-den.

yeah, faih in my country sucks. and i think it should. weīre just stiff, civilized people, mostly atheists too. we're quite cultivated, good at music and IT.

i don't like patriotism and nationalism cause it's these kind of things to make people go to war and do crazy things. it's fine in when it comes to sport but beyond that....

i don't like my nation so much, we're just a puny country in the north and have a funny accent. and i certainly wouldn't die for my country, i disagree with most things here. and we were cowards during WWII. i don't think anyone in Sweden would die for this country. we're just soft.

	06-07-2001 04:04									#30
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Everyone is probably a little patriotic but excessive nationalism just breeds intolerance, xenophobia and allows extremists to gain power. Just look at the list of current wanted war criminals for an example of the biggest "patriots" around.