25-08-2000 09:22									#1
	The "Wonders" of OCC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Maybe this is another piece of the puzzle.

I've noticed in some recent threads that most people (I think) build Darwin's during an OCC game. Is it really worth it? I would have thought that by the time it was available to build, the advancements would be coming every two or, at most, three turns.

Wouldn't it be better to save the caravans for AC ship building? Are there any other wonders I'm overlooking? I go for:

Colossus
Copernicus
Sir Isaac
Shakespeare's
Apollo

I've thought about Hoover on occasion when a hydro plant wasn't an option but that's about it.

Bottom line... is Darwin's worth it?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	25-08-2000 09:40									#2
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I'm starting to believe it is worth it, especially if you have 80 shield production upon reaching space flight, and have a large treasury/ high income.

Building Darwin's will cut at least 1 turn off your approach to space flight, and more likely 3-5. It only costs a handful of caravans/freights and the more I play, I am finding that having freights at space flight is more of a luxury rather than a necessity at 80 production. you have 15 turns tur build up a treasury just building structurals, and you can get extra gold by selling off unnecessary items (sewer system, research lab, etc) once you are where you need to be tech/size/production wise.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	25-08-2000 09:47									#3
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Most OCC games will find you flush with money (from AI gifts and caravan deliveries). I can usually build Darwin's, (shaving 4 turns off your final landing), and still get my spaceship off in the minimal number of turns.

If you have been unsuccessful in forming alliances (perhaps if you are using MGE), you might find yourself with less cash than normal. This would be the time to avoid Darwin's.

If in doubt, don't build it right away. Keep building up your cash reserve and building caravans. If you have 2 or 3 thousand gold and extra caravans close ot space flight, then build Darwin's then.
[This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited August 24, 2000).]

	25-08-2000 09:48									#4
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Ditto to what SCG said.

Also, you mentioned building Hoover when you don't have a water source to build a hydro plant. I don't worry about pollution in my OCC games, since by the time pollution becomes an issue, most of the terrain is already terraformed and I have 2 engineers to immediately clean up any pollution that may occur. I have also employed this strategy to make multiple 100++ shield/turn superproduction cities in my non-OCC games without giving a second thought to all the toxic triangles. 2 Engineers clean up any polluted square in 1 turn and you only get 1 polluted square per city per turn, never 2. Hence I build the Factory, Power Plant and Manufacturing Plant without any consideration to Hydro/Solar/Recycling/Mass Transit types of improvements.

	24-08-2000 22:33									#5
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SCG, I would absolutely agree with you if you have an 80+ shield producing city. The extra 3 or 4 turns might be worth it.

I do play MGE, Tom, so I am sometimes strapped for cash.

And Inca, I, too, don't worry about pollution in the end game. I just hope my two engineers don't ever go on strike. Say... there's a scary thought for Civ 3.

BTW, all. I have also been known to terraform plains/grasslands to forest to bump up my city to become an 80+ city.

But back to the initial question, I guess I'll give Darwin's a try next time. Why not? Nothing else is helping me break the elusive 1900 barrier.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	25-08-2000 00:06									#6
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just a note on reaching 80+ shields. I almost never create forests any more. Mined hills bring in 1 more raw shield (which becomes 2-3 production shields and is otherwise identical to a forest - same food same trade. If at all possible, I put those hills on rivers. I'll even chop down rivered forests if it means in the long run an extra specialist or 2, given time constraints. I'll build extra engineers for this purpose too, disbanding them towards the production buildings (factory etc). And it gives my settler a great thing to do while i am teraform. A settler started mining a grassland at the same time 2 engineers start teraforming it will produce a mined hill quicker than a settler can grow a forest. I've also seen the merits of holding off a factory until later. A city with a production of 25 (10 if you net 38 gold/turn by whatever means) is equivalent to a city with 49 production when it comes to producing caravans. And with a small production, that means far fewer engineer turns wasted on superfund duty

Edit: just some rewording/grammar fixes
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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited August 24, 2000).]

	25-08-2000 01:11									#7
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I have been on sabbatical from OCCing for a bit, but I do like building Darwins late - sometime after flight, when the loss of the colossus hurts the most.

Ditto SCG again - Once I started using the 'caravan builds 50 shields of wonder switch to space part' approach and making sure I was at net 80 shields of production when Apollo is built - it really doesn't take that many freights or much cash to build a part every turn. 6 for components, 9 and two grand cash for modules? or something like that - less if you disband other stuff or have the money.

I could swear that I was getting as much money in MGE from alliances than I used to in v2.42 from tribute??

Has anyone done an OCC scenario where caravans/freights are removed??

	25-08-2000 07:21									#8
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trying to get my post from 16:11 to show...

	25-08-2000 22:36									#9
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I have been building Darwin's in every game just to shave off a couple of turns, but in the OCC16 game I noticed the the Spanish, an ally, started to build it as I was building caravans to build it too. I just waited and when I was notified that they would finish the next turn, I gifted them everything so that they would get new techs. I was at 2 techs/turn by then and within 4 turns was able to trade for the new techs. Worked slick. At that point in the game, techs should be coming fast, yet I'd be gifting them anyway so I figured I might as well get something for them. It saved me about 6 caravans and didn't cost me any turns.

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"Then what happened"

	25-08-2000 22:51									#10
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Darwin's can get you 4 techs in 3 turns if timed right.

One problem with letting the ai build it is the ai may be inclined to take Amphibious Warfare and Genetic Engineering for example.

OR...the ai may get flight(depending on your tech gifting).

You are usually building freights at this point waiting for engineers to finish improving the land before you build a factory.So,it seems to fit in well.

	25-08-2000 23:19									#11
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Playing MGE, Darwin's Voyage so far seems less effective to me, since cash is hard to come by (my highest gift by a loaded, worshipful ally so far is 150 gold - once. That was after giving them five techs, next turn they're back on hostile).

If another tribe builds DV, you may gain two techs without having to make an effort!

Wonders that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread are King Richard's Crusade and Leonardo's Workshop. What's the view on those?

Maybe Hanging Gardens can be an option, too, if you skip Monarchy and go straight for
Republic.

- Rib -


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	25-08-2000 23:25									#12
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Leos doesn't help meuch, especially for its cost. Its not worth building, only slow you down. Sometimes if you can time it right KRC will help, but it expires too early on the OCC tech tree. HG is an ICS wonder not an OCC wonder, it expires too early like KRC to be very effective. Well it doesn't expire too early, but its MUCH less useful after Shakespeares so it isn't worth all the early effort... which is probably the most important part of the game.

	25-08-2000 23:28									#13
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Also, skipping monarchy is usually not the best idea because republic usually comes to far down the tech tree to research in any reasonable time under despo. If you can get republic fast you'll probably be slower to get trade. Anyway, republic isn't as useful without construction. And if you want to research construction, trade then republic under despo, you're in for quite a LONG OCC game Early trade routes are VERY important and usually not possible if you went straight for republic. (not to mention getting pottery prior, as you mentioned)

	25-08-2000 23:39									#14
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Rib -

edit: you can skip this post if you have just read Caesar's...

The negative on HG is that it may cost you the Colossus if you build it first and if you build it second, you should be close to not needing it anyway.

KRC expires too quickly, and with rush buying, shield production doesn't make that much difference until you are building the space ship - and KRC is long gone by then.

Leo's could be useful if you are buying a big "none" army and extracting tribute from your neighbors, but the loss of veteran status is a big drawback and buying a big military is an inefficient use of your limited cash resources when you are unlikely to be significantly harassed. If you are streamlined and just have a few units then the cost of Leo's overwhelms the limited benefits.

	26-08-2000 00:44									#15
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Well, I'll try it out some more. I played OCC#16 a second time - the game went MUCH different - and built both Leo's and KRC, to land on AC in 1765, my best so far.

- Rib -



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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	26-08-2000 01:35									#16
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I don't build HG because at that time in the game there are so many other more important things to build. KRC has the same problem and also will most likely get you over 20 shields. That means that you will get pollution problems.

Leo's is not really necessary in OCC. I would not spend my resources on it unless I had loads of gold and/or caravans. I did build it in the Fundy game because research was slower and I had not much else to build at the time.