23-08-2000 23:27									#1
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I was just reading one of the long threads on trade, and how the bonus is figured. I was under the impression that there was a bonus for a caravan sent to a civ with wich you are currently at war. I did not see that mentioned. Am I wrong about that?

	23-08-2000 23:31									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have never noticed any difference in the value of caravan depending upon whether or not I was at war with the destination civilization.

	24-08-2000 00:36									#3
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I have, however, come to the tentative conclusion that war affects the number of beakers needed per tech advance. I've been tracking that lately, and determined with full confidence that the number is always an integer multiple of the tech number you're working on (not already have), not counting free starting techs. But i can't figure out how the integer is determined, and it sometimes fluctuates quite wildly. I've often found that it skyrockets when I'm rude to my neighbors, or sinks when I make peace, but I'm not at all sure yet that it's really the cause.

	24-08-2000 01:14									#4
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I haven't noticed a war bonus... hmmm, I'll have to start looking for that.

debeest - have you read some of the old formula threads? By factoring some of the results of Caesar's study or looking into Catallus, Xin, and others old study of the formula you may save yourself some duplicating work. The shape of the tech cost line certainly looks like a sum of squares. (Asymtope?)

here is the old list of data link - Catallus' post is near the end...
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/H...html?date=13:21

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 23, 2000).]

	24-08-2000 04:03									#5
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Right, the general shape is sort of an asymptote, not unlike the way population is calculated. But the specific numbers are always the product of the number of the tech you're working on (not counting free starting techs), times some integer that generally grows over time but also fluctuates wildly from time to time. Check this out and you'll see that this is true. But I haven't seen any formula that shows how that integer is determined. I'd love to see a reference to an explanation. I know, for example, that it depends partly on your own advancement vs. the AI's advancement, but there's more to it than that. In the OCC game I'm playing right now, I've seen it go from 21 (52nd tech requires 1092 beakers) to 38 (52nd tech requires 1976 beakers) and back to 21 in the space of one turn, for reasons not apparent to me. I know the simple formula I've generated is right, but what I'd really like to know is how the integer is selected. Does anyone think they know?

	24-08-2000 07:33									#6
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Tom Demille discovered that the # of civs currently in a game effects research rates.

Also the ai tech level in relation to yours.In occ,when you gift techs,your research can/will change.IE:when research drops to 3 turns per tech you start gifting techs.Checking the science rate after each civ.When it drops to 2 turns I stop and repeat the process when it drops again.

Contacting and gifting to all is important.OCC 16 for me,saw the Persians remain uncontacted for some time.I finally made contact,gifted a slew of techs and my research went from 4 turns to 2.

	26-08-2000 07:29									#7
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I know that the player's tech position compared to the AI tech position is important, although I've had little luck altering my own beakers requirements that way; I've been loathe to give away dozens of techs. And I'm glad to learn that the number of civilizations also matters. But I still have absolutely no explanation for the egregious example I described above. And it's still happening to me. Every few turns the requirement changes from (21 x newtech #) to (35 x newtech #). Sometimes (20 x) and sometimes (22 x) and sometimes (36 x). No change in the number of civilizations. The requirement can change up OR down when I gain a tech, but doesn't always. It can go down OR up when the AI gains techs, but doesn't seem clearly related to that. And it can happen when there's been absolutely no change in relative tech position; I'm merrily working on the next tech, and no one has gained any techs, and suddenly I need 40% more or less beakers than I did the turn before. This game has been more unpredictable than most, but in limited terms, I always find this to be true. It makes it very hard to keep from wasting beakers in an OCC game. I'd sure love to hear from somebody who can really explain it.

	27-08-2000 09:58									#8
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Debeest, your trade can suffer badly when a trade partner changes its government, say from Democracy to Despotism (yes, I've seen that happen ).

Still, I've NEVER seen variations as wild as you describe!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	27-08-2000 20:55									#9
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Thanks Sten... saved me some time digging that thread up all the way from (is it still on the first page? )

There are many things which alter the research rate... I'm not sure what could account for such a drop though. Maybe you had a major science city that went into disorder or something? Or perhaps an error in the game (not like any of us would be surprised )

	28-08-2000 09:37									#10
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Wow! I was playing OCC#2 (MGE) and had it happen to me, too! The requirement for the next suddenly changed wildly, while my science production and # of advancements stayed exactly the same and nobody revolted.

This looks like a serious bug, then. In the same game, I was not allowed to research Refrigeration until after Leadership, which is not normal, so maybe more was screwed up.

- Rib -

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	28-08-2000 00:14									#11
	Support Apolyton

Two quick points -
We have absolutely no confidence in the existance of a "war time" bonus
If you take a look at my (SG1) OCC logs you will see several instances of wild beaker cost fluctuations documented.
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The SGs in concert

	28-08-2000 01:50									#12
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Ribannah (and Caesar and others), please note that I'm not talking about a change in the amount of trade or science that I'm getting. I'm accruing the same number of beakers per turn. It's the number of beakers NEEDED per advance that changes. Ribannah, I'm glad you observed the same thing yourself. And SG1, I haven't looked at the logs, but I suppose they'd confirm that I haven't lost my mind. in this regard, anyway....

Also, I've noticed that when the requirement goes both up and back down (or down and back up) before I reach the next advance, it changes back to the SAME number it was originally. For example, my research cost for my 52nd non-free tech recently went from 1092 (i.e., 52 x 21) to 1976 (i.e., 52 x 38) and then returned precisely to 1092. Then when I was working on my 53rd non-free tech, it went from 1113 (53 x 21) to 1749 (53 x 33) . Please, SOMEBODY must understand this!