26-07-2000 15:44									#1
	Naval Warfare. Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

All my comments relate to MP since i've never actually experienced naval warfare against the ai.


I was wondering what other people thought about the comparison between Sun Tzu's and Magellans with respect to Naval warfare.
ie if one human civ had Sun Tzu's and the other had Magellans, which would be expected to win a naval war.
I think most people would initially say the civ with Magellans however although Magellans adds to the movement of your ships it doesn't effect the veteran status.
Sun Tzu's does not give you an automatic veteran ship when you build it but it does make any ship that wins in combat a vet. Granted that might have happened anyway but with Sun Tzu's it happens every time.

So my view is that with Sun Tzu's you can build up a veteran navy that could defeat the opponents navy even though they have the advantage of extra movement.

thoughts?


I know i had other things to discuss about Naval warfare but i can't remember. I haven't really thought about it a lot since i haven't been involved in it to much, until recently. So i'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on any aspect of fighting on the sea. MP of course
Maybe this should be in the MP forum.

	26-07-2000 15:47									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think you should just surrender.

	26-07-2000 16:23									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Before Port Facilities are available to you, I would have to give the nod to Sun Tzu's.

You just build a ship and cruise the coast looking for a weak unit to kill. Instant Vet.

Now granted, your ships still have to be as good or better than your enemies... but I just love those vet ironclads

	27-07-2000 04:18									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have yet to play MP - I vote for the vet Ironclads too! But don't forget that Magellan's makes the caravans pop in faster -and trading is generally is more efficient. Transports that only move 5 - yuk?!
------------
SG (2)

	27-07-2000 04:30									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ming, don't help him

	27-07-2000 04:54									#6
	Tired of ads?

Makeo - What a great question! The two seem perfectly opposed in possible advantage.

I think I would want to be the attacking party with either; the usual advantages of terrain for the defense don't exist in naval battles (and assuming that neither is near home ports).

Magellan's allows attacks and the possiblity of escaping out of range for damaged ships, Sun's don't get any advantage until they kill something (to get vet status). And Magellan ships will get vet status anyway if they survive.

Sun's ships will get vet status before engaging other ships just by sniping off the available shoreline units, but they can't escape as well.

I think that the longer the naval battles go on, the greater advantage goes to the Magellan ships. More likely, the advantage will go to the one with the better stacking and deployment skills than by which Wonder you have.

------------------
Proud participant in GameLeague...

Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance...

	27-07-2000 07:03									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Veterans are everything in this game but it sure is nice having 2 more moves.

hmmm....I guess it depends on how watery the map is.

I think I would like to have both.And The Lighthouse

What about The Lighthouse?Is it obsoleted?Who has/had it?

	27-07-2000 08:17									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Bad luck for makeo that I don't leave "loose" units lying around for his ships to attack

Anyway stop helping him guys - he has many advantages in this war, which he started, notably more troops and cities. I'm the underdog here

	27-07-2000 10:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It'd really depend what you were fighting. A full-on naval engagement? A race to a new continent to colonize? Or just all-out war?

	27-07-2000 19:30									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Too bad this is a computer game. If it was a board game, I'm sure one of these two would eventually have a hissy fit and upset the board, scattering pieces everywhere.
Makeo, I suggest you move your non-vet navy right next to Horse's veteran battleship, parking all of your units in one stack on their last move.
Happy, Horse?

------------------
Bring it!

"Do not act as if you would live ten thousand years. Death hangs over you. While you live, while it is in your power, be good." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)

	27-07-2000 20:57									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think it depends on the units involved. Caravels: I'd take magellan.
Cruisers: I'd take sun.
With low defense numbers, movement is more important; with good defense number(=to attack) vet is more important.

	28-07-2000 05:53									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Before Ironclads, Magellans. If you can get the lighthouse too, then Magellans has the definite advantage a bit longer.

After Iron clads, it isn't so cut and dry as you might think. Granted, any fight a boat wins means vet status. But vet status can also be obtained without the Acadamy. it just takes more tries. But opportunities will arrive. such as taking out that now vet but heavily damaged boat that just sunk your ship, which you will easily find and reach because you have magellans and it is damaged.
So you can still get vets between the lighthouse and amphibious warfare. The other guy isn't going to get the two movement bonus.

Also, magellans will give your weak transport vessels a lot more survivability. You can wait 2 squares outside of his city to drop off a caravan or military load, and on your turn drop it off and move your transport out of range of any boat in the city you just visited.

	28-07-2000 09:15									#14
	Put an end to popups!

All my ships are vets

	28-07-2000 19:30									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Even with magellan's, you may come upon a superior force without enough movement points left to escape. I would pick sun-tzu for the land based benefits, and call the naval benefits a bonus. If your strategy uses transports to deliver units between secure cities,( I like this) then the extra movement may be critical.

	29-07-2000 15:56									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well actually guys I've been very restrained in this thread because methinks this thread has a point.

	04-08-2000 18:10									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Huh-Huh!!! he said Naval!! ha ha!!! Huh!
So like, uh, is that like a bizarre sex thing!?!?
Yeah, Yeah!!!!
Huh, huh!!! i saw it last week on cable, Naval Warfare 3!!! ha ha!!
Yeah!!!


Sorry guys, i think i've got that Friday Feeling...

	04-08-2000 18:59									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Aren't you a bit old for that stuff Oldman?

	04-08-2000 19:11									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Too old for what Mao? Do you mean too old for bizarre sex films, too old for that friday feeling or too old for crap, time-wasting posts?


And i'll have you now Viagra is an absolute gods send!!!!

Edit: Getting fussy about my grammer in my Old age!!!!!
[This message has been edited by Oldman (edited August 04, 2000).]

	04-08-2000 19:27									#22
	Got spare money?

Bah! Viagra...

	04-08-2000 19:32									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Is that like a modern day Scrouge?

instead of Bah, Humbug it's Bah, Viagra!!

	04-08-2000 20:28									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Mao... go spam the coffee shop...

Do you +1 posting off topic if you aren't going to stay on topic!

------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	05-08-2000 09:50									#25
	Support Apolyton

If I can steer this back on topic just to drive away the imbeciles ( ), since when does Sun Tzu gives vet ships? I thought Sun only effects ground units?

	04-08-2000 23:21									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Steve,

With Sun Tzu's, all units (including ships) become veterans automatcally upon winning a battle.

	05-08-2000 03:15									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think I'm going to have to raise my consideration of Sun's. Most of my ships survive their first battle (well, I choose carefully, and usually from port ambushes). That auto vet status for winning ships seems better all the time.

------------------
Proud participant in GameLeague...

Proud Warrior of the O.W.L. Alliance...

	07-08-2000 02:35									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Lighthouse is a winner on maps with some water. Veteran ironclads could won any game with alot of coastal cities.
Not to mention naval warfare.
Lighthose is one of most underrated wonders (pyramids too).

	07-08-2000 03:45									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Like everything else in Civ, the general answer seems to be that it depends on the situation right? It depends on what your vessels are trying to do (ie: catch an invasion force, escort an invasion force, general patrol, etc. etc.) but I'm more of a perfectionist so I'd have to vote for Sun's generally.

	07-08-2000 08:22									#30
	Suffering from ads?

The irony of this thread is that I could have had BOTH Sun and Magellan in my game with makeo.