11-07-2001 20:39									#1
	My Name Is Sprayber And I'm A Control Freak!! Increase Your PM Length

Yes it's true, it's true. I was just reading a thread about automated formers and I would never have this problem becuase I never automate anything. I know what your saying, that it would get boring as hell moving all your units around but I just can't help it. I tried automated formers and patrol patterns and governors. It didn't work for me. Are there any more control freaks here?

	11-07-2001 20:56									#2
	Got spare money?

Oh yes. I never automate anything. The AI always ends up doing something stupid and I will have to take control to fix the mistakes anyway.

(Not that I have even tried automating SMAC units. I have abhorred automatic movement/orders since the Civ 1 goto commands, which could get a unit stuck for centuries trying to walk across the straits of Gibraltar )

Micromanagement rules!

	11-07-2001 21:00									#3
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the AI can hardly handle itself. i'd die before giving the AI any control of my stuff.

i'd go so far as to plot out the rout to a destination myself. never pressed the "G" key (except on Alien Artifacts when i want to see which node is still unlinked)

	11-07-2001 21:26									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yes, if there's a Micromanagers Anonymous, I must join it. That's why it takes so long to get through the games. But I can't trust the dopey AI to help lose the game for me!

	11-07-2001 21:37									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

::shyly raises his hand::

Count me in with the "I-HAVE-TO-BE-IN-CONTROL-OF-EVERY-SINGLE-UNIT-MY-EMPIRE-EVER-BUILDS" group as well....

::sigh::



-=Vel=-

	11-07-2001 22:49									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Sorry, I don't get to join you guys. My list of occassional automations include:

Using the goto (g key) command on boats/formers.
Setting a former to automatic sensors.


And, when I'm really in the mood for a fast game (a few times year), all conquered bases get govorners. Usually, they just control resources, but sometimes they get the whole shebang.

I promise I'll work harder until I have the honor of joining MicroManagers Anonymous.


Incidentally, and this will probably be abhorable to you guys, I've allways wanted to try a automated game, where the only thing you really control are military units. SE Settings and Govorner settings can be changed once every 10 years. All fomers to be automated.

	11-07-2001 23:03									#7
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Count me in this group as well. Given how the AI manages its own empires, I don't want it to manage mine

	12-07-2001 00:24									#8
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I am a hopeless Macromanager, and I absolutely love the goto commands, etc. Alpha Centauri has decent pathfinding AI (most of the time) and if I don't give them auto-commands, I am likely to forget when I load up the saved game.

	15-07-2001 18:46									#9
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I have had a fanatical hatred of automation ever since I tried automating my settler units in Civ2. They went around happily making alterations to the land, until they did everything they could.

Then they went into my bases, and just stayed there. I couldn't tell them what to do, and even worse I couldn't reactivate them or even disband them. They just stood in the cities, permanently greyed out, and unwilling to do any work or be disbanded.

Because of this I have been a compulsive control freak in SMAC. This fortunately dovetails with the choice of my favorite faction...

	16-07-2001 03:25									#10
	The Micromanagers Anonymous (or, M.A.) Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kassiopeia :
Hi. My name is Kassiopeia and I'm a control freak.

Allie C., Death_head, Vlad A., Vel, Earwicker, Iskandar R., Tau Ceti and President Sprayber (together) :
Hi Kassiopeia.

Kassiopeia (very emotional) :
Last night I was playing SMAC. I was the Hive and I had at least 20 bases.

Approving nods.

Kassiopeia (still rather emotional) :
Then I thought that mayhaps I could put some bigger bases on governor and some formers on Automatic to make it go easier.

Disapproving shakes of heads.

Kassiopeia (bursting into tears) :
Then I found out that my biggest science base had built a punishment sphere! Baaah!

Kassiopeia sits down on his chair sobbing helplessly.

Rest of the group (pityfully attempting to confort K.):
Group hug!!!

	16-07-2001 03:28									#11
	Re: The Micromanagers Anonymous (or, M.A.) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Kassiopeia :
Hi. My name is Kassiopeia and I'm a control freak.

Allie C., Death_head, Vlad A., Vel, Earwicker, Iskandar R., Tau Ceti and President Sprayber (together) :
Hi Kassiopeia.

Kassiopeia (very emotional) :
Last night I was playing SMAC. I was the Hive and I had at least 20 bases.

Approving nods.

Kassiopeia (still rather emotional) :
Then I thought that mayhaps I could put some bigger bases on governor and some formers on Automatic to make it go easier.

Disapproving shakes of heads.

Kassiopeia (bursting into tears) :
Then I found out that my biggest science base had built a punishment sphere! Baaah!

Kassiopeia sits down on his chair sobbing helplessly.

Rest of the group (pityfully attempting to confort K.):
Group hug!!!

PS: Thanks Velociryx. About that quote I mean. "All your base are belong to us". I have literally spent hours thinking how the legendary grammatic error was!

	16-07-2001 04:43									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

I never move any unit manually with the exceptions of formers (and ofcourse when attacking), to get around the aircraft/missile base-seeking habit I use waypoints to force them to dodge the bases. Waypoints are incredibly usfull and I cant believe it took me about 6 months of playing to try them...

Other than movement I wouldn't dream of letting the AI take control of my bases or units, I cant imagine letting an automated former loose on my carefully terraformed empire.

	16-07-2001 10:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No automation. But I do use time-saving techniques; I move formers in big clusters to finish stuff really fast. Sound strategy, also very very lazy. Heh.

I also make heavy use of F4 and right-clicking to rush at multiple bases. I don't want to go into a base screen unless it's out of stuff to build or I need to fortify it.

I don't even let the AI design for me. Inevitably it makes a useless mix of units that can't possibly benefit me at the time. No thanks, if I need it, I'll build it.

Automation is the work of the devil! Or sure seems that way, the way units act (possessed?).

	16-07-2001 11:31									#14
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When I start a game I control all of the formers myself. I check the base control screen to see where the workers are nd send the former to make a farm/mine/solar collector what have ya to speed up base growth. When I have 3 or 4 bases I use one to create an extra former and have it lay down roads connecting them. I do use the "Construct road to..." command for that.

By the late game I automate half of the formers because by then I'm too busy with vendettas most of the time to worry about them. Besides by then I have so many formers it becomes a chore. (I always have a few that I personally control though to repair fungus damage and finish up terraforming base squares.)

I almost always automate sea formers. For some reason its tedious for me to control them. Besides, if I don't have sea bases by the mid game I don't build them. They take too long to grow IMHO and are too vulnerable when the others get their navies together. Once a sea former has "auto improved home base" to the fullest I give it full automation and let it roam around forming coastal squares.

D4

	16-07-2001 19:42									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Well, I always do everything myself in the beginning of the game. Everything is so important early on, and the slightest error will cost you the game.

D4, I am just like you. I hate managing sea formers, probably because it's harder to know what to do with the sea than on the land.

	16-07-2001 23:23									#16
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I use Governors on a reasonably large scale, but I do check up on them periodically to see if they're doing anything dumb - like the Conquer 'vers building useless Artillery...

I never ever ever automate untis though. The AI is so dumb in that respect - I've seen Morgan, for example, moving Colony Pods back and forth along the same stretch of Mag Tube time and time again, or Dee patrolling the same stretch of land with a scout rover again and again. Dumb. I never want that to happen to me.

	17-07-2001 00:00									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

When I run governors, I just do a quick run through the Function keys to get a quick status report of base building each turn. I can quickly scan for Punishment Spheres, etc. It's quick and easy, and saves me lots of time.

	17-07-2001 03:06									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Oh, would'cha look at that... According to the Firaxis site, the newest update fixes the "Governors messing about with Punishment Spheres" -problem.

	17-07-2001 03:11									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Thats what you get for trusting Firaxis...

	17-07-2001 08:02									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I cheerfully use the AI for long-distance movement. Yeah, now and again a unit takes a turn or two extra (especially air units) but - so what? Auto-remove fungus works nice and saves a lot of work. Beyond that - no way, Jose.

In the "boy is the AI hopeless" department : I have been testing some mods and was checking on how the AI responded. Checked in on a Spartan base, size 2, that was building a Rec Commons. Why? Weeeelll, Santiago was running FM and that city was supporting a gunship scout...

	17-07-2001 10:25									#21
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I'm sorry folks, but if my empire is going to be run into the ground then I will do it myself, thank you very much. For CIV II the only automation I used was if I needed a isolated plains or grassland square irrigated, then since Irrigating Mountains took so damn long I would plop an engineer or settler on the correct square and give it the K command since the AI and hence my unit now AI controled didn't need water to irrigate.

In SMAC the only way I use the automation features is to Hold down the mouse button on a distant square when I want a unit to travel there. I've also tried the / (auto explore) on a few ships, but I'm not sure it is worth the effort.

I create my own build queues and redesign any AI suggested units as I see fit.

Ken

	17-07-2001 13:56									#22
	WARNING! maths follows, apoligies in advance :) Remove this text

Does anyone actually move every single unit with keys? Just, erm, wondering

quote: No automation. But I do use time-saving techniques; I move formers in big clusters to finish stuff really fast. Sound strategy, also very very lazy. Heh.

This comment amused me (no offense ), if you do the maths it is a lot less work to get every former to work on it's own task.
The maths of drilling 16 boreholes (with the WP):
Gang of 16 formers, complete one borehole in one turn, this requires the gang to be moved 16 times, involving 16 moves per former, for a grand total of 256 moves.
16 seperate formers, (each) complete a borehole in 16 turns, thus a grand total of 16 moves.
And, the nice comprimise:
4 gangs of 4 formers, drill a borehole in 4 turns, 4 moves per gang, for a total of 64 moves.

Each "move" requires one mouse click+hold, and one shift-b, then an additional confirmation if drilling on forest. For either 2 or 3 discrete actions. (more if moving using keys).

Clearly, a massive "real time" advantage is gained by not ganging your formers. The in-game advantage is fairly large for ganging however.
One gang of 16 formers:
720 minerals, 720 energy (multiplied to about 2000 net energy).
Which is something like 2 medium sized SP's, and a few techs

4x4 formers:
576 minerals, 576 energy (somewhere about 1500 net)

16 individual formers:
no advantage

What can I say, I'm a maths geek

	17-07-2001 19:42									#23
	Got spare money?

And your point is...

Are you saying that people should take the extra time in r/l to save time in the game?

Personally, I get sick of moving all those formers, but that's just me. What there needs to be is a que, so you could select all 16, and hold some button and que up all the boreholes at once. Then you wouldn't have to worry for the next 16 years! (or whatever)

	18-07-2001 03:23									#24
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The AI flaws and lackings are a Red Conspiracy to spoil the youth of the Western world More time spent on the PC instead of fighting the Red Invasion

	18-07-2001 03:38									#25
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No point Isn't that always the case with maths?

It's just another interesting example of how spending real life time, directely results in greater virtual game resources. The crawler crawl is an even better exampe.

IMO, game designers should avoid this sort of thing, because quite frankly it's a horrible tradeoff, and doesn't put players on an equal playing field. (basically people who have a life, cant do as well as those which dont ).

One of SMAC's downfalls is that the bean counters get such a tangiable benefit from extreme micro managment. Hopefully this "problem" will be fixed in Civ3. Dont get me wrong - I like a healthy amount of resource managment in a game, but some micromangment can be removed with NO negative impact on playability. (I'm thinking the ability to do crawler crawl).

Another horrible tradeoff that evil game designers can do (but thankfully rarely) is "The faster you click the mouse button, the faster you do something (ie fire)". Clicking fast and often can even result in various injuries, so the tradeoff becomes your own physical well being for virtual in-game resources or increased abilities. (being turnbased this is one thing the Civ series cant suffer from).

	18-07-2001 04:18									#26
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So here is the challenge for all of you Control Freaks:

The Govorner Challenge

Random (no control of specific random attributes) Huge planet, Trancend, Blind research, must use govorners, automated formers, and faction research priority. No Spoils of War. Any other settings as you feel like it.

Can only change SE & Govorner priorities every ten years. Must use faction's preferred SE choice or none on that row.

Cannot use Advanced Govorner settings (all on), but may use any combination (including none) of the four basic priorities. Use all terraform settings (all on). Automate all terraformers use any automate command you care to.

You may use the design workshop as you see fit to limit/expand the disigns the govorners may build.

Choose any faction. Each base may have multiple priorities, or none, and each base can have seperate priorities. However, you may only change the base priorities on a Misson Year multiple of ten.


The exceptions are:

You may set a Social Engineering choice the year you discover the tech that allows you to use it, provided you are not running a different SE choice on that same line. If you don't have the money to turn it on that year TOO BAD.

When you found a base, you have the option to build a garrison and a former (any order), but that is it. After the pop-up window for the base informs you the second item is finished, you must enter the base screen and turn on the govorner.



This challenge basically concentrates on overall mission parameters (Social Engineering & govorner priorities) and waging war. You'll probably find the turns go fairly quickly.

In addition (and this is the part that makes it very hard) I bet the govorner almost never builds crawlers.

	18-07-2001 19:20									#27
	Remove this text

Hmm, I don't think this would be very hard...that is basically what the AI does but you have the advantage of being a good micromanager. Of course I haven't actually tried it yet...

	18-07-2001 20:35									#28
	Put an end to popups!

Fitz, I think you hit the nail on the head. Micromanaging aside, the most important distinguishing factor that separates humans from the AI is the use of crawlers. Ned

	18-07-2001 22:39									#29
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Might be fun. A little frustrating, but fun. I'll try it tonight.

	18-07-2001 22:49									#30
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LOL….hadn’t read this thread in a few days….that was a good one, Kass! And, you’re welcome…yes, truly one of the most massive flubs of recent ‘net history….it still cracks me up….oh, and the best part was a couple months ago, CGW actually had the quote running along the top of their front cover….

-=Vel=-