11-07-2001 23:23									#1
	A grumble about the AI Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I've always been impressed by the way that SMAC and SMACX doesn't rely on blatant AI cheats...but they do happen and man, it pisses me off. I know the AI can't really match human cunning, so there has to some allowances, but dudes....this was ridiculous.

I'm playing a new game (I usually start several different games at once so if I get bored with onew I can play the other for awhile and switch back) As the UoP I find myself alone but near the monsoon jungle. My opponents are the Believers, the Cult, the Gaians, the Drones, the Hive and Aki. My first move is to go for Secrets of the Human Brain and get the free tech, so I can try and out tech everyone else. Within a few years I discover Social Psych...the FIRST breakthrough on planet. A few turns later I get SotHB and begine building the HGP in a base that had a very high mineral count for the start of the game (9). Five turns later I get the message that Aki has built the HGP. HUH?

Now, its bad enough that the believers where building the Weather Paradigm and the Virtual World also... (I was too, in other bases but I knew they might beat me to one of them) but How in the name of Fungus could Aki not only make the needed discoveries but then beat me to it? Yeah, it can happen, but man, I swear the AI just said "Screw it!" and gave it her.

Too add insult to injury University Base had a drone riot so I nerve stapled them. Then I got the message that I was being sanctioned! By who? I haven't MET ANYONE yet. I should be able to eat puppies for breakfast and kill millions for kicks and the other factions...who don't yet know I exist...would be none the wiser!

Anyone else got any compaable grumbles? I'll get over it...its only a game...but after a bad day in the office that really popped my cork.

D4

PS...by the way it was Thinker level

	11-07-2001 23:59									#2
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What probably happened with Aki in that scenario was that she was only one turn away from discovering the tech herself, and she probably had a better base than you.

As far as the sanctioning, I have never had that happen to me, but I agree with you completely. That is stupid, and it's not even put in there to give the AI an edge.

	12-07-2001 00:13									#3
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Oh yeah? What about seeing HUMONGOUS numbers of missile needlejets come and wipe your a** of the place of Monsoon Jungle? OK, I got wiser later on and actually built interceptors in respectable numbers (pull those SOBs down to the ground ), but still... Also in another game, where I had war with Yang, I infultrated him and found out that he was supporting 23 units for FREE in just one of his bases!!!

I wish Firaxis came up with smarter AI and not just give them ridiculous advantages .

	12-07-2001 01:03									#4
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23 units for free!?

Have you considered the possibility of clean reactors?

Who knows, I tend to not engage in heavy probe activity so I can't affirm or deny that statement.

	12-07-2001 02:01									#5
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My main gripe is probably the faction grouping on transcend difficulty, for some reason you usually get dropped right next to atleast one warmonger, and sometimes several.

An "average distance between factions" option woulda been nice.

	12-07-2001 02:12									#6
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And where exactly would the fun be if you weren't getting blown to pieces all the time?

Oh wait, it would be there...D'OH!

This guy rules

	12-07-2001 02:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by death_head 23 units for free!? Have you considered the possibility of clean reactors? Who knows, I tend to not engage in heavy probe activity so I can't affirm or deny that statement.

Yang was nowhere near that tech at the time, he was still beginning to research Neural Grafting and I've checked his Security Nexus to see whether there were Clean Reactors - none detected ...

The mistery continues

::X-files theme::

	12-07-2001 02:37									#8
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The mistery stops

:ause X-Files theme::

The mystery continues

::resume X-Files theme::

	12-07-2001 01:42									#9
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I use the game edit and my games turn out play worthy.

	12-07-2001 02:01									#10
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What's with this guy? -->

At first I thought it was blood spurting outta his ear, but that made no sense....now I think of him as 'Red Sperm Head'.

Anyways, just a tidbit on the SP business..I have noticed that sometimes the AI's initiating of an SP is not announced. I suspect this is because the AI starts working on say, the Merchant Exchange and then discovers Planetary Networks and switches to working on the Virtual World.

I don't consider this an AI cheat at all, just a fuddlement of the point of announcing that they are working on a project in the first place. I mean, ya can't say on the one hand 'Why don't they ignore my nerve stapler?' and on the other hand expect to hear all the latest AI gossip out of the ether.

I like to think about some of these things in Smac and other games as Rumors being spread by the countless little workers you can't see...makes for a storyline of sorts: "Say, Where's Joe today Marty?" "I dunno, but I heard he was working intel over by the Human Hive...odd that he's missing our Rover mini-worm-golf game???".."Well I Heard that Yang is Nerve Stapling his own people! I hope the guys upstairs do something about that.." Yadda Yadda.

Personally I feel like the AI 'Cheats' are pretty well defined but it's still a great feeling when the AI SEEMS to be thinking b/c of those cheats. On the other hand, when you have no chance to outsmart it because it's churning out Needlejets for 12 minerals or somesuch, it gets dammed annoying.

What I hate is that I can get a billion crawlers crawling all the FOPs, be running FM and using specialists, and then look over at Miriams paltriness and see she's about to get 2 more SP's b/c her mineral requirements seem like: HGP: 25 minerals VW: 35 minerals...and so on. I just wish the AI had to go through Crawler Hell and actually need production, but it doesn't b/c it can't, and that's too bad.

-Smack

	12-07-2001 03:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Smack What's with this guy? --> At first I thought it was blood spurting outta his ear, but that made no sense....now I think of him as 'Red Sperm Head'.

He's pounding his fist in rage lol , or maybe hes over exerted himself watching pr0n

	12-07-2001 08:36									#12
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I dunno, but the tool tip says "I said do it!"

23 units supported in one base, is it possible yang was running Police State and Power, for the magical >+3 support, allowing base size units supported free, so if it was a size 23 base then they would all be free, perfectly legally... presumably some are probes, and possibly some are mindworms in fungus...

Basically, if it was a size 14 base, and the other 9 units were probes or mindworms then it could just be possible. *shrug* or it could be blatant cheating. Or it could be units showing up as supported in the wrong base (I've seen weirder).

	12-07-2001 08:48									#13
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If you want to talk about an obvious AI cheat, try the unlimited range conventional missiles the AI's seem to love tossing at you. I had one game where Lal seemingly had an endless supply of them in one base and chucked 'em clear across the globe at me. It drove me mad, until I built the space elvevator, dropped half a dozen tanks in on him and wiped him out. (I would have accepted his surrender but the missile thing really ticked me off)

D4

	12-07-2001 13:45									#14
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I thought the missile bug was patched?

The single most annoying AI cheat would have to be the ability to see any and all cloaked/hidden units, because it removes an entire element of gameplay from the singleplayer experience.

	12-07-2001 19:33									#15
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The AI can see cloaked and hidden units. It will seek and destroy your hidden units, but it will not attack a cloaked unit, even though it knows where it is.

	13-07-2001 02:33									#16
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d4 maybe that HGP thing is because the prerequisite for it is biogenetics(isn't it? )

and how's this for an AI cheat. the AI using marines. i can see how it happened. (lal convenes the council of the AI) i have called you all here for this meeting because of a brilliant idea i have just had. instead of just putting amphibious pods on infantry and sending them to attack land bases from land, how about we use them to attack coastal bases from transports! (murmuring among the other AI leaders)hmm thats a good idea...lets make him planetary governer.

and i'll bet nobody's seen this before! zakharov calling you a wretched un-believer because of your "godless" police state. (random agendas) of course i thought that since he's going to be running fundy it'll really balance him out. of course the university can't choose fundy

oh and whilst we're talking about smilies shouldn't this one be uh-oh?

	13-07-2001 02:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TKG oh and whilst we're talking about smilies shouldn't this one be uh-oh?

LOL

Moi's 3 personal favourites:



By the way, if you hold the mouse over this guy ( ), it will say "I said do it!!"

LOL

::Remix of X-files theme::

	13-07-2001 02:51									#18
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We need an Aolyton smilie java game! Where you have to organize the smilies like they are arranged in the posting page!

	13-07-2001 04:42									#19
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code:

             

             

             

             
        

	13-07-2001 18:52									#20
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Exactly...and then it would scramble itself, and you would have to put it back together.

	14-07-2001 00:44									#21
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And they called it "A grumble about the smilleys"...

	14-07-2001 02:29									#22
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there are so many cheats, that it's hard to pick the worst one. It vary's from game to game which ones piss me off. The mineral carry over cheat ticks me off, but so does the instant units.

Mineral cheat: the AI can switch production from a SP 90% done, build a probe team, and resume the SP the following turn with only the cost of the probe team deducted from the accumulation.

Instant units: Last SP game I started, I traded cent eco with santiago. the very next turn, she had 3 formers come out of the same base (with full movement). This is not possible without cheating.

Tech cheats: I had one game, where I started very close to the UoP. with spoils on, I captured a base on about turn 12. He already had around 8 techs. again, not possible without the cheats.

And could you explain how a disciplined probe team can beat an elite probe team and only recieve 30% damage? (both w/fission reactors)

Smac seems ok for MP games, the only cheating you deal with is the wild MWs winning nearly every battle.

	03-08-2001 06:02									#23
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quote: the FIRST breakthrough on planet. A few turns later I get SotHB and begine building the HGP in a base that had a very high mineral count for the start of the game (9). Five turns later I get the message that Aki has built the HGP. HUH?

Maybe she got SotHB with a datalink? And if she had a great base site (like 2 mineral resources, or 2 monoliths), then you are significantly behind her.
Indra

	03-08-2001 06:10									#24
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quote: Tech cheats: I had one game, where I started very close to the UoP. with spoils on, I captured a base on about turn 12. He already had around 8 techs. again, not possible without the cheats.

Faction starts with 1
Faction Ability=+1
Datapod. Datapod. Datapod.=+3
Research=+2 (1 per four to six turns)
Trade with neighbor=+1
=8.
Essentially why I prefer the University if I want an easy game.

Indra

	20-08-2001 20:46									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Black Sunrise Faction starts with 1 Faction Ability=+1 Datapod. Datapod. Datapod.=+3 Research=+2 (1 per four to six turns) Trade with neighbor=+1 =8. Essentially why I prefer the University if I want an easy game. Indra

Actually, I was the only neighbor, so that would mean 4 techs from data pods. As I said, not possible without cheating. NO human faction gets 4 datapods in that brief time period. for theat matter, human players are lucky if they get 4 through the entire game. Also, human players are less likely to get datapods if they are in the tech lead. The UoP was obviously in the lead. For that matter, the UoP could have got 6 datapods. possible? yes. a cheat? yes, imho.

	20-08-2001 21:33									#26
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In one University game I had 9 techs by 2107. Started with 2, researched 3 (incl. SotHB), got 1 from the Secrets and found 3 in pods. Needless to say, I had started on a river and moved along it to found my second base on the first turn. Does it happen often? Certainly not. But it is possible, without cheating.

	20-08-2001 21:47									#27
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quote: the FIRST breakthrough on planet. A few turns later I get SotHB and begine building the HGP in a base that had a very high mineral count for the start of the game (9). Five turns later I get the message that Aki has built the HGP. HUH?

It stinks, but it seems the cheating is the AI's only way of staying competetive.

If you were Aki's only neighbor, then it sounds like time to send a Rover-rush after her. THEN, you'll have the HGP. Don't forget to thank her.

	20-08-2001 22:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Cybergod Oh yeah? What about seeing HUMONGOUS numbers of missile needlejets come and wipe your a** ...... Also in another game, where I had war with Yang, I infultrated him and found out that he was supporting 23 units for FREE in just one of his bases!!!

How can you tell that 23 were supported by the same base?
IIRC, the game doesn't show the base name under the units for other peoples units (even if infiltrated). Also IIRC, in the base screen, there seems to be a 2 "page" limit (with a 1 row overlap) in how many units you can see in the lower right corner where the supported units are identified - that's just 3 x 3 times 2 = 18 less 3 for the overlap equals 15 units - maximum # units visible in a base support box. :banned:

	21-08-2001 20:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Earwicker It stinks, but it seems the cheating is the AI's only way of staying competetive.

And that is the key thing to remember. I am sure we all know the AI cheats, and why. As you say, it's the only way the AI can offer any resistance. Though we all know that, we still like to complain about it on occasion.

There will probably never be a game AI that can match wits with a human. If someone could write a good thinking AI (for a tbs), the program would be too large to fit on a disk. Not to mention such talent would be wasted on a game.

So, untill the time comes that today's supercomputers are so much yard sale fodder, and the average person can afford a good rig; We will endure the cheating AIs, and continue to grumble about it. :banned:

	22-08-2001 17:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by cousLee There will probably never be a game AI that can match wits with a human. If someone could write a good thinking AI (for a tbs), the program would be too large to fit on a disk. Not to mention such talent would be wasted on a game.

and it would TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!

(okay, reading a little too much sf)