12-07-2001 08:37									#1
	Formers As Weapons Of War Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This was mentioned in another thread and it happend to me in my recent game. Why does the AI go after formers first and let other units that can kill them go? In one game I tried a theory by escorting valuable units with worthless antique formers. Just as I thought enemy jets came in and went for the formers who were in adjacent tiles. Same for my naval forces. Do they consider formers more important to the faction than military units. Another thing that keeps coming up is when a faction launchs a surprise attack they go for the former closest to them. In my recent game I(yang) had the HSA. And Domai launched a total of six probe teams against an old former on the edge of my empire that was planting a forest. I keep getting these messages that the Drones have lost a probe team to the HSA.

	12-07-2001 09:17									#2
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My guess is the AI gets dazzled by the fantastic odds of winning a fight vs a former.

Possibly it considers the cost / defense, rather than just defense
Formers : 2 / 0.5 = 4
Plasma Garrison : 2 / 3 = 0.67
Missile Needle in base: 4/1.25 = 3.2
Missile Rover: 6/1 = 6
Missile Plasma Rover: ~8 / 3 = ~2.7

I fear the way AI choose targets is that simple, take the cost/defense of all units in attacking range, and attack the unit with the highest value, often this will be formers, because generally low defense units are kept tucked away in bases (would an enemy noodle prefer attacking a former or missile rover? interesting question...).

Bearing in mind once fusion arrives your formers generally remain fission, and are often upgraded to super/clean, still with the non-combat penalty, making them very attractive targets.

My alternate theory is the AI does it to be annoying
(the "fight like a man!" type annoying)

	12-07-2001 10:59									#3
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Another theory is that it sees Formers as a more potent "weapon" than a military unit. Let me explain what I mean.

A military unit, in the overall scheme of things, only plays a very small role. It cannot really change the "fortunes" of a faction except in groups, It's only purpose is to attack the enemy and defend against the same.

On the other hand, a Former has far more multiple uses than a military unit would. 1 Former, just 1, can change a base from a weak producing location to an industrial powerhouse simply by terraforming.

Here is an another use of a former: suppose that two factions are separated by a narrow (1 square) channel of water. To be able to land units on the other side, you either need a transport or a drop unit (which carries a -50% penalty if it attacks on the same turn as airdropping, forcing you to wait- that gives the other side a chance to toast it before it is even capable of moving). A transport carrying 4 units can be wasted, thus losing 5 units total. All that industrial might totally wasted.

If you use a former to raise land between the two factions, you can transfer units quicker and more safely than using a transport or without turn movement penalties with a drop unit.

Not to mention, the Former has numerous capabilities- bunkers, airfields, sensors, etc. I think that a former has a higher value overall than a military unit would, not to mention, not as well defended.

To me, it makes sense that a former would be the first to be toasted. Hurt the other side's capability to produce, you stand a better chance of winning.

World War II proved that with the constant bombing of Germany in the latter part of the war. The Germans couldn't produce much material, which hurt their strength. Of course, they had other weaknesses that hurt them more, but this was a basic example. The same principle applied to England during the same time. If the USA had been bombed like Germany was, I doubt we could have produced much either.

	12-07-2001 11:55									#4
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No! I've seen the AI always attack Formers. That's why I create divisions of Silksteel/Photon Formers with defensive special abilities, and see his needlejets fall to them.

	12-07-2001 13:42									#5
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Doesn't change the fact that it is uneconomical to destroy formers, unless you use choppers or very cheap needlejets. The AI uses neither, happily sacrificing 6r fission noodles on vanilla formers.


Well, I had nothing better to do other than sleep so I ran a quick test on the preferences of the Yangish penetrator, I put a yang base, and a dee base a few tiles apart, then spread a tempting collection of units for a hive penetrator to take it's pick of, in each case I put about 6 units out, and genned turns noting which targets it picked off each turn.

Formers / Crawlers
No preference

Formers / Clean Drop Hover Formers
No preference

Scout Tank, String Tank
No preference

30-12-1's , 30-10-1's
Attacked the 30-10-1's first

30-12-1's, 20-12-1's
Attacked the 20-12-1's first

So.... either choice of target is random, or "worse choice", or somewhere in beteen (I can see no logic behind NOT killing hover-formers before vanilla formers, or NOT killing unarmoured string hovertanks before unarmoured scout hovertanks)

I asked the penetrator pilot why he chose the targets he did, and he relpied "ugh, dunno". So there you have it, the AI has no grand plan to grind your industry to a halt, it's just plain stupid!

	12-07-2001 19:30									#6
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I don't see why you're confused that the AI would attack a 30-10 over a 30-12. A 30-10 is easier to destroy, and poses an equal threat should they have a chance to attack. That's certainly what I would do in that situation.

(Of course, if someone put me in a weird test situation, I would probably feel insulted and make guinea pig noises. )

	14-07-2001 03:12									#7
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another AI/killing pref situation.

they seem to like to attack sea bases with needles better than land bases, even if the sea garrison is AAA. in the same situation, the AI was moving in needles, and had to stop in the open along the way to a pacted base to attack me, and in the absence of interceptors, i decided to upgrade some spare rovers to SAM. the turn after i upgrade it, the AI comes and kills it (it was in a base too with AAA defenders ) after i upgraded the next one i was sure to designate defender.

	14-07-2001 03:46									#8
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NorthSw., I think that you think that the AI is too cunning. Like earlier said, I think IMHO that the formers are just an easier kill. And with my experience, I think that they do it because it makes we want to do some undescribable thinks to the AC CD, hence forcing me to buy the game again
When the wretched needlejet shoots my ONLY former in just that corner of the faction territory, I feel an urge to cry helplessly.

	14-07-2001 03:54									#9
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If you're just harrassing an opponent, then sniping at his formers and crawlers is probably your best bet. However, if you're mounting a serious campaign, targetting milatary units is far more important. Who cares about the long term benefits of a former if you're just going to take his base in a few turns, anyway?

	03-08-2001 05:59									#10
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quote: Of course, if someone put me in a weird test situation, I would probably feel insulted and make guinea pig noises.

You log onto the forum with your computer, right?
That explains it. The AI reads these forums, and picks what to attack solely to irritate you.
Ha.
Indra