20-07-2001 00:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I see that colonies can have a purpose but I feel that they don't seem to be very useful. I'm not sure how valuable that resource really is going to be for me to use 1pop point on it. It might all depend on how much happiness a temple will provide if any happiness at all for you to have a big need of getting a luxury resource. Will there still be resources like wine, buffalo, wheat, ect... that will help your food/trade/production like they did in Civ2? That's why I'm skeptical about if a resource is in your 21 city radius you might still be able to get the extra food/trade/production from it like you could in Civ2 and possibly the function that resource would normally provide. This may only be possible if you do have borders, but will it be possible to get the function of a Civ2 resource and a Civ3? It appeared to me that in the resource/colony preview the border increased by 2 tiles when the cultural improvement (I can't remember what improvement it was) was built. It could also depend on the improvement for how much your borders will expand. Hypothetically, a library could only expand your borders 1 tile and a temple could expand your borders 2 tiles.

Tech I'm now switching back and fore with Civ 2. I started a city and it is producting 5 wheat. 2 for 1 pop. & 3 to gain a pop point. It has taken 7 turns to gain another pop point (2). If there is a needed resource just 2 tiles from your city center, are you going to wait until your city expands to 21 tiles or build a colony now. These are the decision that each player will have to make. Remember you city will start with only the first 9 tiles and you will have to wait until it expand to 10 tiles before it will show the 21 tile expansion, or build the first Culture improvement if available.

	20-07-2001 00:22									#62
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I think there's a bit of confusion here. Ordinary squares which give a "regular" bonus (added food, shields, trade) don't have to be inside your culture-borders to be harvested; they just have to be within the city radius. Extraordinary squares which add a needed resource (Silk, Iron, Oil, etc.) need to be within your culture borders or have a colony on them in order to be harvested. Culture borders don't start at one square out from the city; they start 0 squares from the city.

	20-07-2001 00:55									#63
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quote: (Silk, Iron, Oil, etc.)

Will silk still give you that bonus? What about the other resources such as iron, oil, coal, ivory, etc... will they give you a bonus?

quote: These are the decision that each player will have to make.

Yes, I agree. I feel that colonies won't be very useful, they may not be useless but I don't think they're going to be that usefull.

quote: Tech; I started a MPG game last night, It said 20 turns to build a temple that early in the game.

It really just varies on what your production is. Plus I was making up a hypothetical situation. Don't play so much into numbers.

	23-07-2001 08:57									#64
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I would like to apologize. I started this thread due to the fact that I had not seen any colonies in screen shots since the slide show. Well, this was due to me missing the obvious - a screen shot from Firaxis. If you want to see a colony and what appears is a worker about to found another colony coming out of a road north of Rome, click the following link:

http://www.firaxis.com/civ3/images/.../Map_Screen.jpg


Now, does this mean that I am going to throw out my theory that colonies are not that important?

No of course not. I am way to stuborn for that. I still believe (may be because I refuse that ICS will be fixed) that founding a city and buying a temple would be more cost efficent than using a colony. Maybe in time I will find out otherwise. But for now, at least I wanted to point out some of the error in my ways.

	24-07-2001 05:27									#65
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Hmm...that screenshot doesn't show what resource the colony is harvesting.

	24-07-2001 05:52									#66
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.....But if it was you playing you would know.
If you are making a point about wanting to know what that resource is because you are attacking it, then I suppose tough, you get what your given!. If it's something you have lots of then you now have more of it.
Or if theirs still a key that removes all cities from the map, then you might see whats under it?.

	24-07-2001 07:47									#67
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Or maybe you can see by clicking on it like seeing supply and demand for a city in Civ2.

	24-07-2001 08:42									#68
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I think the only way you should know what your opponents colony is harvesting is if you have an embassy with that civ or you have had a unit directly next to the colony at some point in time before.

	24-07-2001 15:11									#69
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Since you wouldn't know the colony was there unless you had got close enough to lift the fog of war I don't understand your point.

We were discussing before that these are not really colonies, they are industries, and that much of the confusion about whether or not they can expand into cities or recover their population is from the confusing terminology. If they decide to make changes I hope one will be to make the artwork distinctive to represent the activity. It's pretty easy to distinguish a copper mine from a silk farm.

	24-07-2001 18:18									#70
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Grumbold,

Have to agree with you on that one. You should be able to know what is made in the colony without having to spy. It should be a simple mater of trade and word of mouth. If the AI is offering to trade bronze with you, you will want to know where it comes from. And if there is a colony that you know about, then it would not be that hard for word of mouth to come back to you that the colony produces bronze.

	24-07-2001 18:38									#71
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Even though in real life it would be very easy to find out these kinds of things, in the game it would be more interesting if you had to spy or whatever to obtain production information.

	25-07-2001 04:59									#72
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quote: Even though in real life it would be very easy to find out these kinds of things, in the game it would be more interesting if you had to spy or whatever to obtain production information.

Yeah, I would have to agree. It would add a little bit more strategy. Anything that will make the game more fun (even if it makes the game more difficult) I am all for it. That is why I want it to be this way.

	26-07-2001 01:18									#73
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I am sure it would be very easy to determine what is produced in a colony. Remember the 'view terrain' button?

	26-07-2001 15:42									#74
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Thats what I mean. With view terrain being in-game, the only reason to leave them identical is to cut down on artwork. Since Firaxis are doing their best to include all sorts of fancy animated artwork in the game, a few more atmospheric stills of different workshop types seems a little thing to add to the mix.

	26-07-2001 16:39									#75
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins Well, that depends on how long it will take to build a certain cultural expansion improvement and how long it will take you to build a colony.

Also bear in mind that culture depends on how long your improvement has been around. I think we are assuming that cultural growth is going to be fairly rapid when thats not necessarily going to be true.
Seems to me that colonies are going to be useful, even from picking out the meager positive points people have mentioned so far.

Rich.

	28-07-2001 05:28									#76
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First of all, I'd like to remind people that they're making assumptions on how colonies are going to work based on ideas and concepts from Civ2. Things will change. Just a reminder.

Also, after reviewing the slideshow on the use of colonies, it is clear to me that they do only one thing: they collect the special resources (eg: silk) of the tile that they are on. They don't grow, they don't collect neighboring resources, and they don't give the population point back to the city that envelops them.

Personally, I think that colonies are a good idea and will be equally useful in both ancient and modern times. In ancient times I'll just be starting out with a few small cities and as a result my borders will be small to nonexistant. I'll have resources that will eventually be inside these borders and I'll have resources that will be outside.

Now when making my decisions, I have to keep in mind how quickly I need the resource, how long it'll take to expand my borders (we do not know how long it'll take to build the necessary buildings), and whether I can afford to shrink my city.

First, the resources that will eventually be inside my borders. I don't know right now how long it'll take to expand the borders, but I bet that it'll take awhile and I'd much rather be spending time building stuff like defensive units and city growth and happiness improvements. So I build a worker or two and go and found the necessary colonies to collect the resources. Yes my city shrinks but it will regrow fairly quickly at this stage of the game. If I don't need the resources then I don't build the colonies.

Now, here's where I really see the use of colonies, and this is where I really want them. There are going to be plenty of resources outside of my borders. How do I get them? Do I go and build a new city, or a new colony? True the city looks better at first since it can get bigger, build things, and add to the empire. However, if that resource is outside of my borders then chances are that I didn't want to build a city there in the first place or that a city won't fit there without overlapping the radii of existing cities. There are also going to be resources that I just can't build a city near, whether they be near another civilization's borders, or in the middle of Antartica.

Finally, when my empire has reached modern times and I really don't have room for any more cities. I discover a new technology and therefore a new resource. Do I waste the settler building a city that will never grow to more than size 3? I don't think so.

Now, before everyone yells at me for my views, remember that it is my opinion and I am not telling you what to think.

	28-07-2001 20:37									#77
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Good work, meriadoc

I agree pretty much with everything you say. Colonies will be not only useful but a nice addition to strategy and decision-making.

	29-07-2001 00:43									#78
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Thank you. It's nice to know that someone reads my stuff and, more importantly, there is someone on these forums who doesn't react violently to every little thing.