14-07-2001 09:32									#1
	Gamespot "screenshots of the entire span of human history" Suffering from ads?

I was posting this as a response to a thread on colonies but it struck me that it raises other issues which are best not argued about on that thread:

I haven't seen a screenshot of the game map that reminded me of any time much after the invention of musketeers and factories. The rocket cutscene and unit images seem to be their justification for quoting "the entire span of human history". I believe that testing has not yet reached a satisfactory level with the modern era otherwise we would be seeing screenshots of the map with modern city graphics, farmland, railroad and modern units like tanks and fighters.

None of the shots give me the feel of a leading world nation. No feeling of big armies marching around. The single unit graphics might be hiding an army but I can't pick them out. No cities with all their surrounding land irrigated, mined or otherwise optimised. No cities above size 12. This all leads me to believe that there is a lot more work to be done and an October release is not possible for a fully tested product.

What do you think?

	14-07-2001 09:40									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

If you look at the Infogrames civ3 site, you'll notice that the October release date has been removed. There has been no indication by Firaxis that they will be releasing it any time soon.

Also - I believe that Firaxis is/should/will hold(ing) information back. If we see screenshots of all parts of the game, people may begin to lose interest, start to expect too much, or simply draw whatever conclusions come into their minds first.

It's too early to worry about anything like this. The game will be released when it's released and it will be the best civ game ever. Sit down. Be quiet. And be HAPPY!

	14-07-2001 09:45									#3
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I didn't intend this to be another "release date" thread, we have enough of those already Anything else to say to support or challenge my other observations?

	14-07-2001 09:59									#4
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I didn't intend this to be another "release date" thread, we have enough of those already Anything else to say to support or challenge my other observations?

Just that it's way too early to think much of anything about civ3. We have no clue if the stuff we've seen is even accurate. The game could have easily been changed after the release of those screenshots. Give it time.

	14-07-2001 10:08									#5
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Time? It will have gone gold before we know it and then it will be too late!

Can you spot an "army" anywhere, for instance? Is it possible without using a spy to tell whether a unit is hiding 50 more underneath it? Should it be impossible for anything except a spy to investigate? Too many questions, not enough time...

	14-07-2001 10:16									#6
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quote: It will have gone gold before we know it and then it will be too late!

It already is too late. Almost all of the big stuff is done.

quote: It will have gone gold before we know it and then it will be too late!

No I haven't, but that doesn't mean anything.

quote: Is it possible without using a spy to tell whether a unit is hiding 50 more underneath it? Should it be impossible for anything except a spy to investigate? Too many questions, not enough time...

We'll just have to wait for the game to be released to find out about all the little things.

	14-07-2001 10:49									#7
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There definetely needs to be a way to tell the difference between an army and an unit without a spy. I mean, what army in any time period was actually able to hide 50 units and make the enemy believe it was one?

Please don't flame me with Lee making Northern generals believe he had more troops by marching around hills or any other army that hid troops. All I am trying to say is that any casual observer could look into a field and see a ton of dust being kicked into the air and know that the approaching enemy is stronger than a unit and has a pretty big force. Of course you might need a spy to find out exact numbers.


As for no modern age screenshots, we also have not seen the feature of a leader unit used yet. I really believe they (Firaxis) are still fleshing these ideas out and it might take a few more months to do so.

	14-07-2001 10:51									#8
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quote: Originally posted by tniem There definetely needs to be a way to tell the difference between an army and an unit without a spy. I mean, what army in any time period was actually able to hide 50 units and make the enemy believe it was one? Please don't flame me with Lee making Northern generals believe he had more troops by marching around hills or any other army that hid troops. All I am trying to say is that any casual observer could look into a field and see a ton of dust being kicked into the air and know that the approaching enemy is stronger than a unit and has a pretty big force. Of course you might need a spy to find out exact numbers. As for no modern age screenshots, we also have not seen the feature of a leader unit used yet. I really believe they (Firaxis) are still fleshing these ideas out and it might take a few more months to do so.

Right

	14-07-2001 10:54									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It looks to me like Firaxis haven't done a very good job of the modern era yet.

Most of the screenshots don't look very much like a civ game, when the game comes out, it will proberly be quite different.

	14-07-2001 10:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 It looks to me like Firaxis haven't done a very good job of the modern era yet.

How could you possibly know? Firaxis hasn't released anything about it yet. For all we know, the game is done and Firaxis is just waiting for Christmas/New Year to release it.

quote: Most of the screenshots don't look very much like a civ game, when the game comes out, it will proberly be quite different.

I'm certain the game will look much different. Most parts of the game are most likely in the "alpha" stage. I'm sure very little has actually been written in stone.

	14-07-2001 11:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th How could you possibly know? Firaxis hasn't released anything about it yet. For all we know, the game is done and Firaxis is just waiting for Christmas/New Year to release it. I'm certain the game will look much different. Most parts of the game are most likely in the "alpha" stage. I'm sure very little has actually been written in stone.

So the game is finished and there is no point us making new suggestions, but it's probably only in the 'alpha' stage so everything is subject to change

I'll continue to comment in the hope that my remarks are pertinent and persuasive

I'd like to see big stacks throw a big shadow or employ some other device to hint at their size. Warlords had the standard with differing flag size which was a good hint. Only military units shoulr count, so 1 pikeman with 10 spies and 10 diplomats would look small. 1 Spy with 10 pikemen would look much bigger. I'm all for having national flags instead of pink coloured units too. Please Firaxis, check out EU or Conquest of the New World and take notes

	16-07-2001 13:53									#12
	Re: Gamespot "screenshots of the entire span of human history" Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I haven't seen a screenshot of the game map that reminded me of any time much after the invention of musketeers and factories. The rocket cutscene and unit images seem to be their justification for quoting "the entire span of human history". I believe that testing has not yet reached a satisfactory level with the modern era otherwise we would be seeing screenshots of the map with modern city graphics, farmland, railroad and modern units like tanks and fighters.

Maybe the game is still so easy (weak AI) they win hands down at musketeer era.

You are right, they show screenshoots about the same era again and again. I understand that early debugging and game balancing need this loop again and again; I hope they won't do same mistake than they did with SMAC, where you win the game when half of the tech tree is still undiscovered, because mid game was enough to beat AI face down to the dust.