15-09-2001 00:00									#91
	Continuing the Game Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, it looks to me from all the discussion, and from what I have been able to tell from looking at the game files, that no actual cheating occurred.

No actual list of game rules seems to have been drawn up for this game. You were already in informal alliances early in the game, and if alliances can be made, then they can also be broken. One player has told me he understood that a one time gift of units was allowed.

That the gifted units popped out of the city they were in seems rather obvious; they couldn't very well stay in the now-foreign city after all. That does not count as a "move". The files I have looked at do not show whether they had been moved earlier in that same turn, and Deity swears they were not moved.

Deity may have chosen a rather spectacular way of dissolving his alliance with Markus, but that is not illegal, per se. And since he believes that Markus used priveledged information about his (Deity's) cities to suggest a good point of attack to Hydey, that seems to indicate that the alliance was a formality only by that point.

I also note that Markus is on top of the PG and rising where others are declining or stagnant, that he did not lose any cities (did I miss one?), and his defense was a military success (a kill ratio of at least 3-1).

It seems to me that all players should come back to the table and continue where they left off (1300?).

	15-09-2001 07:18									#92
	Proof is possible... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yo Cavebear - hope you are OK.

There IS a way of proving that units did NOT move BTW, just for the record.

Open up the 1270 Greek (deity) Auto save - this is my auto save which I do have and I also sent to Markus straight after the last game session (TOURNEY_de_Auto2). If you open as my Greeks it is uncorrupted by AI moves elsewhere.

Once opened as Greeks play my turn - ie build the rest of the railway.

Hit Enter.

The game moves to Markus white civ and the game year hits 1280.
Then Hydey's blue civ moves..
then Makeo's yellows.....
Then in 1280 on my Greek turn cede the Engineers to Germans (Hydey) WITHOUT moving them.

1290 - Germans move my Engineers for the FIRST time!!!!!!

Hey, guess what I just realised!!!

My Engineers weren't moved by ANYONE during 1280!

I was too cautious about this issue arising

Markus, I think to be fair you should at least publicly apologise for the cheating slurr. Please?
Other folks may not say anything but may quietly think to themselves that so and so is a cheater because the suspicion is there.
You've been a good sport with other issues so how about it?

----

Another problem with the game is that Markus has looked at our maps because he said he was retiring but I'm prepared to let that go if it gets him back in the game

	15-09-2001 10:52									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

deity doesnt cheat, he jsut assists his allies enemies !!!!

	15-09-2001 14:30									#94
	Decision and day off.... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, we need a decision on all this but I can't play tomorrow.
I'll be online at the usual time to discuss the way forward but will have to disappear soon after....
If Markus plays on then my understanding is we use the last save from the beginning of the Spanish turn in 1300AD.
If he retires we need to decide what to do with his civ.

	15-09-2001 19:40									#95
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have ICQ'd Markus asking him to reconsider his withdrawal from the Tourney and from this specific game. I am hoping he will choose to fight rather than quit. He is a top player, and we all want him involved in this game and this Tourney. Personally, I consider this an opportunity for Markus to prove *why* he is one of the top players. Responding to adversity is the hallmark of a true champion.

I think most of the (understandable) concerns that caused the disruption of the game have been examined pretty carefully, and that there are no remaining concerns of anyone cheating. As we have all learned recently in the real world, surprise can cause confusion and suspicion. Fortunately, this is just a game, and it is far easier to resolve such things.

If I were Markus, I would not hesitate to rejoin the game. Deity is going to have a very hard time of things if he does, and I would not want to be in his shoes.

	16-09-2001 00:43									#96
	Markus says no:( Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm afraid Markus has said he won't play.

We are deciding what to do.

We may divide up Roman empire and then kill Roman civ to destroy capital.

	16-09-2001 02:21									#97
	Halt, Cease, and Desist! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I hate to put it bluntly, but that's an order.

First, I want to hear from Markus himself about this, just to make it official.

Second, I will decide if you will have a replacement for Markus or an alteration to the game.

I know that sounds annoying as hell, but I'm trying to manage a tournament here and I have to consider the far-reaching consequences.

Myt first choice is to get Markus back, and I would appreciate an opportunity. Second would be to find some one of sufficient stature to replace him in the existing game. Third option is for me to grab the current game file, make it a scenario and change the map to remove the Romans yet allow the remaining 3 players access to each other.

OK?

	16-09-2001 02:56									#98
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ok

	16-09-2001 04:02									#99
	Fair enough cavebear.... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A few thoughts...

1) I'm amazed at Markus decision.
Without trying to be too annoying I just reckon that someone who boasts as much as him is really showing incredible weakness to not play on. He originally retired on the basis that Antium was lost and that it was a 3:1 gang up.
AFTERWARDS he brought up excuses about rules being broken but that has now been resolved.
So, it gets back to in-game strategy....
It's one thing to have super trade and growth strats, it's another to work all facets of the game in all it's abundant strats! A truly great player would not toss in the towel when the situation doesn't suit. Markus, you are losing credibility over this so for God's sake why not play on and have some fun! Relax about winning and losing - it's not the end of the world.

2) cavebear, if we get a replacement no matter how good or bad, it does not truly reflect their ability since they did not build up Markus civ. So, do you mean a non-competetive replacement? Someone who plays the Romans to the best of their ability but NOT part of the tourney?

3) Regarding the pg in the game at 1300AD:
The pg won't update with the loss of Markus city AND lots of wonders until 1330 so the current pg is a bit misleading. My pop is actually higher than Markus's and it's only those Wonders keeping him up the top (I think)
Playing his civ will be very challenging despite the currently high number of units and cities.

	16-09-2001 14:24									#100
	Tired of ads?

Cavebear has done everything very well so far and I see no reason not to go along with whatever he decides.

	16-09-2001 19:28									#101
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

First of all, let me say that appreciate the way all have you have given me a chance to straighten things out. I know you are anxious to get on with the game.

Second, I have tried to get Markus to rejoin the game, but he will not.

Third, how to get the game going again?

The best thing would be to find someone who would continue in the Tourney in Markuss place. Perhaps someone who could not play when it started but can now, or someone nominated who has changed their mind about not playing.

The next best thing would be to have someone join just to finish this game, to play the Romans in a reasonable fashion. There were some people who would have played but dislike the 2x1x and 2x2x rounds.

The last thing I can suggest is that I remove the Romans and reduce the territory they held. There should be enough land left that the Spanish and the Greeks can get at each other, but not so much that it penalizes the Germans who won't have access to that area.

I am open to suggestions on replacement players or changing the map.

Hell of a week......

	17-09-2001 00:46									#102
	Re: Fair enough cavebear.... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by deity A few thoughts... 1) I'm amazed at Markus decision. Without trying to be too annoying I just reckon that someone who boasts as much as him is really showing incredible weakness to not play on. He originally retired on the basis that Antium was lost and that it was a 3:1 gang up.

Isn't it usually the biggest boasters who puss out when they are losing? They are too insecure to play on while losing. They see the game purely as a won/loss exercise and not as a fun experience.

	17-09-2001 00:57									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ok i might be able to help out and finish this game for you guys, whendo you play ???

	17-09-2001 13:56									#104
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Raz

He beat eyes of the night, he will just crush us all.

I hope he starts with Deity

	20-09-2001 13:02									#105
	Game is corrupted:( Get a bigger avatar today!

Hate to say this cavebear, but as Makeo said to me on icq, this game can no longer be a tourney game. I tend to agree with that.
I reckon it can only continue as a tourney game if Markus returns.

Please, Markus, you must return to this game.

I'm so sick of investing months of time in terrific games that effectively fall apart because a player drops out.

If the Roman civ is played by a non-competitive replacement it is ANOTHER game.

If Markus doesn't return I'm happy to go by the pg to determine places OR have a rematch.

But the game as it stands is corrupted without Markus.

All strategy changes because of an out of game event, ie Markus retiring.
Why waste resources going after the Romans who aren't in the tourney?
Makeo said he wasn't going to press attacks against the Romans and Hydey said all deals are off. I'm quite happy with backstabbing based on in-game strategy but NOT as a result of an out of game occurrence. Forget it. You can only play a game like this with the original players.

	20-09-2001 13:06									#106
	Play on as a non-tourney game though! Increase Your PM Length

But, I meant to say, I'm happy to play it out for fun but not the tourney!

	20-09-2001 15:25									#107
	Re: Game is corrupted:( Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by deity Hydey said all deals are off

I said all deals are off until we know what we are left with.

eg how can I exchange the 2 cities I captured off you for 2 cities you capture from the romans if the romans are removed from the game. All I want to do is wait and see where cavebear leads us and then decide what I am to do.

I see no point in sending demands via ICQ as to what I have to do until we know what form the game is to take.

Please continue , I have finished ranting now.

	21-09-2001 01:13									#108
	yeah, whatever:) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What you said Hydey just proves my point...

But I'll do whatever cavebear decides.

	21-09-2001 16:39									#109
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Deity, I'm afraid you make a good point about the consequences of a non-Tourney player in the game. I had in mind that the replacement player could still capture points, so that you would all have to fight that person for your own points, but saw only half the problem. The replacement player wouldn't be worrying about his *own* points and could just become a maniacal trouble-maker.

I agree that a replacement player will not work in this case.

The two best alternatives are for you guys to start a new game (on a new map) or for me to remove the Romans and adjust the landmass (at the year of your mutual choice).

In the second option, I would remove most of the land where the Roman were, leaving enough for the Spanish and Greeks to have a border. Then, since the Germans would not have much access to that new land, I would add some to theirs.

What do you guys think?

	21-09-2001 23:54									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think removing the romans and land is a good option.

but i also have no problem starting a new game.

in fact i don't really care either way. both are acceptable options to me so you can choose..see what the other guys think.

	22-09-2001 00:57									#111
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK...

	22-09-2001 13:31									#112
	whatever :) Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Both options are OK with me as well.

	22-09-2001 14:20									#113
	what a shame... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This was such a good game and I'm so reluctant to start yet another game. Markus is not even answering my icq's now

I would prefer to continue with this game since we've come so far but with the other two allied I'm in the most vulnerable position so any map adjustments would need to be carefully worked out. I think I'm strategically disadvantaged whatever the option unless Markus returns. A revised map with 3 players or a 4th replacement player for the Romans is equally bad for me

But, may as well carry on for the fun. There will be other tourneys... I hope... cavebear????

Thanks for all your efforts and patience btw.

So, if we continued from where we are on a revised map without the Romans I reckon we need to go from where we are.
Hydey has Antium and the Wonders. Makeo says no to this but I can't see why not nor can I see how you change that.
Maybe Hydey honours some of the deals with me, maybe not... I don't trust him anymore
All I can say is any back stabbing I did was in the context of the game.
he he
But Markus and I will never trust each other again!

So, cavebear, how is this done?

Can you have a go at altering the map as discussed whilst maintaining the current state of play, ie at the beginning of the Spanish/Makeo turn in 1300AD? I think the current geographical relativity should be maintained btw. How the hell do you do this editing? Do you have to spend hours building it up as a scenario?

	22-09-2001 14:28									#114
	Kill civ! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why don't we just kill the Roman civ?

That's what we did in last years tourney and we also agreed not to settle the killed civs land - it was regarded a wasteland. I think this would be a little fairer.

	22-09-2001 16:30									#115
	Got spare money?

why would this be fairer than killing civ and turning land into ocean?

	23-09-2001 00:08									#116
	Can't do any of these! Tired of ads?

Can't kill off Romans because all my trade is with Romans!

What a friggin mess.

It gets back to using a replacement player

	23-09-2001 00:36									#117
	Restart the game Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It appears the only option is to start a new game. It will be the 3 of you, the scoring will stay for 4 so that the winner will get as many points as the winners of the other groups. I will send the new map to Hydey.

	23-09-2001 02:54									#118
	Lets try this again :) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I have received the new map from cavebear and will not open it until we start. As host I will choose my civ last .
Lets start again my friends.

	23-09-2001 02:59									#119
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

and we'll make sure we knock deity out early

	23-09-2001 18:01									#120
	The Rules Put an end to popups!

Good luck to all in the new game.

And try to follow these guidelines, please...

Incremental Rush Buying - OK
Ship Chaining - NO
Gifting cities/units/caravans - NO
Hitting wait so a plane doesn't crash - NO
Formal Strategic Alliances - NO
Continuing to build a wonder after its been built - OK
Tech stealing, Embassies, sabotage - OK
Caraporting - NO
Adjusting city resources during a turn to maximize trade benefits - OK
Building an Airbase to increase production - NO
City/Unit trading/bribing- NO