14-07-2001 22:29									#1
	No city bribe = no Great Wall Increase Your PM Length

It's an interesting topic for debate. I am not the first to think of this nor do i even currently play with this rule. However i did play a game this way not to long ago.

Most of us , and certainly everyone i play with regularly agrees to a no city bribe rule, amongst some other rules we play with. In our circles they are known as "Rah rules" but don't mention that out loud because he doesn't like it

Considering there is some discussion going on about attack bonuses ,barb attack strength, and building on mountains, i thought i would bring up the topic of the Great Wall.

In a duel i played no city bribe , no Great Wall. For a duel this rule should be mandatory. The Wall inhibits war to the point where the game is too peacefull.

For MP games do you think the Wall should be allowed. Think of how much more conflict there would be without it. If that raging warmonger decides to knock on your door, you may find yourself in some serious trouble. This might prevent players from just using warriors to defend what is becoming consistently more and more a "race through the tech tree game" with very little conflict

	15-07-2001 00:40									#2
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If I'm willing to devote the resources to a somewhat less desirable wonder then you need to get after Metallurgy.

You only have to sack 1 walled city after all

	15-07-2001 01:20									#3
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While I initially didn't see the connection between the two (I so routinely play "no city bribe", I agree that it is an interesting question.

I think there is enough value for the Great Wall whether there is city-bribing or not. Even in no city-bribing games where I get the GW, I still pay attention to defense. There are enough heavy-duty attackers around to seem to require a valid defensive force anyway. And having the GW requires some serious watchfulness and preparation for Metallurgy.

Many Wonders confer substantial advantages, and having the GW in the game is not much different from the impact of Leo's, Sun's, or Mike's. My preference is for dealing with any or all of the Wonders and adapting to whomever gets which.

	15-07-2001 03:48									#4
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In MP, I'll agree that city bribing shouldn't be allowed.

On GW, I agree with cavebear, every wonder conveys an advantage. (maybe in a duel i'd agree not to include it) . I usually don't build it unless I've lost the race to the others that I like a lot better. If games were continued more, I doubt this would be an issue. The second session would quickly see metalurgy and a few of the other techs that take out some of the early wonders.

On a side note, I have lost a couple of cities after building gw, but it does keep all but the most persisitent from choosing you as a target. But then the war academy has a similar effect.

Rich

	15-07-2001 05:00									#5
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If no Great Wall,then no Michelangelo's Chapel,no Sun-Tsu and no Pyramids . On Rah's maps,GW is best wonder you can have. It really buys you a ****load of time.

SF

	15-07-2001 14:29									#6
	Tired of ads?

does anyone ever play a deity level no wonders game ?? i think would be interesting to play where everyone had to build city improvments to keep poeple happy not just some abstract wonder

	15-07-2001 18:52									#7
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I don't understand what you americans want to play. On the one hand I got the impression you really like wargames. On the other hand you want to forbit citybribe. But citybribe is one of the best wappons in the beginning and against small cities. So if you really like to fight why don't you use this. And what is good about the great wall if you like to fight. You should forbit this instead of citybribe.

	15-07-2001 19:44									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Newsflash Max. Dipping to death is not making war.
There is no tactics, or really a strategy.
Overuse of Dips is b.s.

Yes the Great Wall should be in.
I don't understand why, when one trys to rein in a Dip with illogical ability, the cry goes up for no Wall.
What's the relationship in that?
None.

Rasputin, I've been trying to drum up interest in a No Wonder or One Wonder Only game for months. Deity or not.
Too many players just can't hang without Wonders.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 15-07-2001 at 19:50

	15-07-2001 20:02									#9
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Rasputin, I've been trying to drum up interest in a No Wonder or One Wonder Only game for months. Deity or not. Too many players just can't hang without Wonders.

well depending on time zones i would be interested...

	15-07-2001 20:28									#10
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Maybe next weekend? Give us time to get some players.


One more thought on Wonders.
Pyramids are dicriculous.
How did a tomb become graineries in all cities?
Want to ban something, ban Dips and Pyramids, because they're what makes no sense.

	15-07-2001 20:51									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

maybe syd beleives in canibalism , they ate the mummies

	15-07-2001 22:32									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I suspect that Pyramids are "granaries" because they look like they ought to contain something, and grain crops were very important to the ancient Egyptians.

I would be interested in a "no-Wonder" game (well, whatever is required for space flight allowed). It would depend on the time. I could play on Sundays, any 3 hours between 10 a.m. and 8 p.m. Eastern US Time (GMT-5).

	15-07-2001 22:35									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I've been trying to drum up interest in a No Wonder or One Wonder Only game for months. Deity or not. Too many players just can't hang without Wonders.

Slowwhand - I'm up for a no-wonder game anytime you wanna give it a try. Ive never played that way but would be interested in trying.

	16-07-2001 04:27									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I would like to play a no wonder game too, even without citybribe.

	16-07-2001 06:37									#15
	Not another trade route Enter the AD-FREE zone

Markusf and I played a couple of games with no wonders - its okay provided you don't mind building caras all the time.

I tend to agree with the view though that Wonders tend to distract and unbalance games. You can do quite well without them and in the end build a stronger civ.

	16-07-2001 10:47									#16
	Re: Not another trade route Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Markusf and I played a couple of games with no wonders - its okay provided you don't mind building caras all the time. I tend to agree with the view though that Wonders tend to distract and unbalance games. You can do quite well without them and in the end build a stronger civ.

I think you build a structured all round civ better. However if i can build mikes, and pyramids...... why not...saves building granarires and cathedrals which dont' really excite me

However i agree that caravans are key to the game. Right after expansion, its caravan pumping time.... and this goes on for quite awhile.

Its not viable to build military units and go to war, not unless you have a tech window....and the easiest way to get that is to have those caravans delivered ASAP gets a bit repetitive if you ask me.

If you build great wall, the best thing you can do is connect your cities with roads and crank the economy. Double production greatly sppeeds the game up....sometimes too quickly from my opinion.

I wish more games were x1x1 deity just to fully appreciate the true "value" of civ. Then the GW really has some value...back on topic

	16-07-2001 11:35									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Give me the great wall in a 4 player game and the game is over then and there. The great wall is the most powerful wonder, and if there is no city bribing a good player could take out 3 other players at once. Granted the more players there are in the game the less effect certain wonders have. But in something like a duel the game is over. Especially when people like me hog all the wonders.

	16-07-2001 12:32									#18
	Ha! I'll suggest a tweak to Great wall for civ III Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If adopted, that'll fix you!

	16-07-2001 14:20									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

great walls only good till they made obsolete. i guess if you miss building it yourself you need to watch out for invaders but keep the research up to make the GW obsoltetes asap,, i use that tactic in most MP game si paly when someoine gets leos, i change reserch to get to automobile earleir than i would have ....

	16-07-2001 17:09									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by markusf Give me the great wall in a 4 player game and the game is over then and there. The great wall is the most powerful wonder, and if there is no city bribing a good player could take out 3 other players at once. Granted the more players there are in the game the less effect certain wonders have. But in something like a duel the game is over. Especially when people like me hog all the wonders.

The one thing you have in common with MouthOfNight, is that no matter what the subject is, if you get it the game's over.
I don't know why the rest of us don't just blow off Civ, Markus.
I mean, what's the point?


Sign up for the No/One Wonder game, oh great one.
Do something besides build caravans.

	16-07-2001 17:28									#21
	Re: Not another trade route Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Markusf and I played a couple of games with no wonders - its okay provided you don't mind building caras all the time. .

Why does no wonders lead to having to build nothing but caravans any more than when all wonders ar ei ngame >????

	17-07-2001 09:29									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

in any game...... you should build lots of caravans....whether they are for wonders or for trade routes....or if you can expand quick enough, for both options.....

the game is key around trade pure and simple......

	17-07-2001 11:52									#23
	one for you Raz Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that poll should have had an "I build Great Wall and I am gay" option.

	17-07-2001 14:17									#24
	Re: one for you Raz Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think that poll should have had an "I build Great Wall and I am gay" option.

and people say i am a spammer, here is perfect proof of who is king or rather 'deity' of spam... at least i dont need to resort to gay remarks to get my pc up....

and please answer why no wonders means lots of caras any more than lots of caras with wonders ...???

	17-07-2001 16:43									#25
	Does Raz ever discover trade? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I would be surprised if you built more caravans than normal without wonders but the great one (AH) would know best.

	17-07-2001 16:54									#26
	only in SP games Hydey Remove this text

i would have thought that with no wonders you would be to obusy building all the city improvements to keep people happy , no time to build caras till much later... I have experimented i na few SP games wih no wonders and it makes it a more intersesting game ... i also sometimes choose not build wonders but let the AI get them all, that is fun too

	17-07-2001 16:59									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think what War4 was saying is that once you have trade routes established and all the extra income is flowing, options are more easily available for tax rates .

	17-07-2001 17:11									#28
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i find there is abalcne between cara production and need to build improvements to keep the people happy ...

	18-07-2001 03:42									#29
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Thanks Slowwhand....at least someone is paying attention.

Raz....with trade routes, you don't need the improvements quite as early. remember the earlier you set em up, the quicker they give off a return.

	20-07-2001 14:01									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This game has become more of an arms race more than an actual war, in the last dozen game I've played the game has been primarily about controlling of territory especially of valuable resources like gold, wine, silk, whales or iron. A city on a mountain with walls and two vet musketeers is not going to be taken before the age of howitzers etc, so total conquest is not a feasible way to win and the game becomes more about stopping your opponents expansion while continuing yours, preferably onto his land. The last time I've played a game that was a full scale war with cities lost and gained constantly was months ago. This is partially due to the frequency of the 'rah rules' games I play, without the bribing of cities strategy evolves much furthar than just simply, monarchy - writing - trade - map making and bribe all the cities. GW like all other wonders has its advantages and disadvantages, it requires quite and investment early on in order to reach its maximum effectiveness, but this is at the cost of early expansion and is usually not made unless the race to HG, pyramids or colossus have been lost. If built later opponents will likely rush to metallurgy to render GW obselete, thus loosing its effectiveness as a middle game wonder. I pretty much only build it if I have lost the race to some other wonder and I have a choice between GW and lighthouse...