15-07-2001 15:42									#1
	3rd Reich Faction - Ready for testing Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm putting together a "Super AI Faction", the Third Reich, thought it would be fun to fight a war against the Nazis!

So the idea is to make them pretty tough.

Heres what I've come up with so far - Can you let me know what you think and any other suggestions.

Cheers

Free Tech - Doctrine Mobility (History of Panzer Warfare)
Free Facility - Childrens Creche (Hitler Youth)
+ Growth (large familys encouraged)
++ Industry (effective use of slave labour)
+ Probe (Excellent spy netwok and Gestapo)
+ Police (Gestapo)
+ Morale (fanatical soldiers, indoctrinated from birth)
aversion to democracy
Immunity to mind control (excellent propoganda)
25% attack bonus (blitzkrieg tactics)

Now I was thinking of giving them a penalty of - TALENT, to represent the emigration of the intellectual class. Do you think this is to harsh a penalty, given that I want this to be a "super faction". Any other ideas for minus penalties that wouldnt be too crippling?

Last edited by Robby Boy on 28-07-2001 at 19:30

	15-07-2001 17:34									#2
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I don't think that the Talent thing will hurt them too much. The AI doesn't understand Golden Ages, anyway.

One thing that seems to help the AI in general is to add police and clean to all of their units. These are both abilities that the AI desparetly needs but never uses. Poke around on this forum and you'll find lots of data on this.

	15-07-2001 23:57									#3
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Shouldn't they be called the Fourth Reich since this seems to be another era for them? First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire, Secnd... etc.

	25-07-2001 13:46									#4
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Give them +Support rather than + Probe. Gestapo's prime function was not to act
against foreign forces, and I can't say that the German Military Int. was
better than the western (even if the Soviets possible had a - on Probe)

+ (+?)Support is logical as Germany had a very high proportion of it's male population in arms, without rebellions.

The ++ in Industry is fine, but certainly not because of slave labour as a fantastic mean of industrial success. The German industry was very strong all by it's own force.

The slave labour factor would rather support the + in Support: making male workers available for armed service.

	27-07-2001 00:27									#5
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I look forward playing against these guys!!

The Nazi empire really was a formidable foe, even though they made their share of bad decisions.

I would not "-" anything.

Keep your original list of modifications.

I agree that Support should be + or ++.

And Industry ++.

Even though there was a brain-drain, their researchers cranked out quite a few innovations (rocketry, jet engines, etc). OK, they
missed out on radar, but a little foil probe can change things....
So I would not "-" research either.

	28-07-2001 01:59									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Horus Give them +Support rather than + Probe. Gestapo's prime function was not to act against foreign forces, and I can't say that the German Military Int. was better than the western (even if the Soviets possible had a - on Probe) + (+?)Support is logical as Germany had a very high proportion of it's male population in arms, without rebellions. The ++ in Industry is fine, but certainly not because of slave labour as a fantastic mean of industrial success. The German industry was very strong all by it's own force. The slave labour factor would rather support the + in Support: making male workers available for armed service.

Thanks for your comments.

I've decided to stick with the + probe, to take into account the "work" that the Gestapo performed in occupied territories.
The support factor is a good point - trouble is theres no room for it in the text file. Might add that one later on. But assuming the AI uses police state (which it should), the faction will get a ++ support bonus anyway.

	28-07-2001 19:25									#7
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Heres the faction files if you want to try them out.
Theres two zips (one on each post) as I couldnt fit both of them onto one post.

Attachment: 3rdreichpart1.zip
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).

	28-07-2001 19:27									#8
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Heres the rest of it.
DONT FORGET TO DOWNLOAD THIS ONE TOO.

Attachment: 3rdreichpart2.zip
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	29-07-2001 14:50									#9
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Give the faction a research penalty because
1st: Many scientists were forced to leave because of their religion, etc.
2nd: Hitler stopped several long-time researches. OTOH there are several evolvements in the last years of the war. Nevertheless I think a -1 RESEARCH penalty would be suitable.

	29-07-2001 15:29									#10
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"++ Industry (effective use of slave labour) "

I spent a lot of time reading about the second world war, and I think I'm going to have to totally disagree on this point.
The short version is: When your soldiers are spending their time, guns and ammunition forcing people to work, they are not spending time at the front.
If you want to address the slave labor factor, how about:
+2 Drones
+2 Police

So they can maintain order, but only at the expense of a lot of troops tied up inside their cities, guarding people.
I think this is a really good way to represent the real cost of a dictatorial regime.

Indra

	29-07-2001 15:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Black Sunrise "++ Industry (effective use of slave labour) " I spent a lot of time reading about the second world war, and I think I'm going to have to totally disagree on this point. The short version is: When your soldiers are spending their time, guns and ammunition forcing people to work, they are not spending time at the front. If you want to address the slave labor factor, how about : +2 Drones +2 Police So they can maintain order, but only at the expense of a lot of troops tied up inside their cities, guarding people. I think this is a really good way to represent the real cost of a dictatorial regime. Indra

I think as someone mentioned above, the effective use of slave labour is only part of the Nazi's industrial bonus. The Third Reich had an effective Industrial system in place, regardless of slave labour, even more so once Alber Speer took over that side of things.
Theres another point too - The Third Reich failed to utilise wmen in the work place anywhere near to the extent that the British and Americans did. This maybe ought to bring the ++ Industry down to a +.

	29-07-2001 15:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by LewsTherin Give the faction a research penalty because 1st: Many scientists were forced to leave because of their religion, etc. 2nd: Hitler stopped several long-time researches. OTOH there are several evolvements in the last years of the war. Nevertheless I think a -1 RESEARCH penalty would be suitable.

Agree to an extent.
However, having said, the research of the Third Reich was pretty darn good, look at all the work done with rocketry and the V2 weapons. The Germans also had some of the best weaponry in the war, and werent that far away from getting their own atom bomb.

Looking at the number of Scientists that remained in Germany (and were subsequently snapped up by the US and Russia after the war) I think its best to leave research at 0

	29-07-2001 15:41									#13
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"I think as someone mentioned above, the effective use of slave labour is only part of the Nazi's industrial bonus. The Third Reich had an effective Industrial system in place, regardless of slave labour, even more so once Alber Speer took over that side of things. "

++Industry
++Drones
++Police


Lots of production, but needing large garrissons to maintain control.
Indra

	02-08-2001 04:48									#14
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I thought about putting together Nazi faction myself so I'm interested to see what will come out of this.

Slave labour advantage seems...absurd in fact. Nazi empire didn't had real slave labour at all. They simply used conquered population as any reasonable regime. Which they wasn't, but anyway.

Considerable, I repeat, considerable advantage to Police would be realistic though. SS & Geheime Staatzpolizei kept people in line. And Nazi propaganda was very developed. I'd give them that -2 DRONE. Why not to give free ability: Non-lethal methods? Would serve the character of Nazism pretty well.

Industrial advantage +1, would serve faction well. Children's Creche is a good idea. I gave my Soviet faction the same facility, because of totalitarian nature and high emphasis into teaching of ideology.