17-07-2001 14:19									#1
	About Spies Remove this text

You know how you can bribe units in Civ 2, well in Civ 3 you should be abel to bribe units for a more reasonable price, how about:

Depending on the units rank
Depending on the units age (ancient, rennaissance ect)
Depending on the units strength (if damaged)
Depending on the opposing civilizations cultural strength
Depending on the opposing civilizations economical strength

Also, spies should be abel to do some of these:

Production Sabatage
The spie could sabatage 50 shields in the production area or 5 shields in the production per turn area.

Trade Sabatage
Effectivly rendering the city without any resources for x amount of turns.

	18-07-2001 14:31									#2
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I hope Firaxis do something to overhaul their entire espionage system. I have enough units to shuffle around without them spies.

	19-07-2001 11:36									#3
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I've never liked the whole espionage system in C1 or C2.

I don't see why we require a separate "spy" unit, when a "diplomat" should be able to do the same things.

Espionage in its most basic form (i.e. gathering information, subverting the enemy, assassination) does not require its own technology - we've had spies as long as we've had diplomats. In fact, they've often been (and still are in some cases) the same thing.

Here's another spanner in the works: why do diplomats have to be disposable units? Why not be able to position the unit in an enemy city as an embassy, e.g. via the "fortify" command? If you want to get dirty, then activate the unit and agitate/steal/bribe etc. However, each time you use the diplomat in that way, you increase the chances of it being found out and executed. Should you lose your last diplomat in an enemy city you would also lose all information until you re-establih an embassy.

Any comments?

	19-07-2001 13:30									#4
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My preference is an abstract espionage screen. Once you establish an embassy with another nation you can start spying on it. We used to have a thread where all the nice details were hammered out.

As for bribing units, one could always include it in the right click menu. As long as you have an embassy with the country to which that unit belong, or you have a unit within a certain radius, you could attempt bribery.

Not only this is more satisfactory in a management point of view, but also eliminates the "diplomat leading" problem.

	19-07-2001 16:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger My preference is an abstract espionage screen. As for bribing units, one could always include it in the right click menu. As long as you have an embassy with the country to which that unit belong, or you have a unit within a certain radius, you could attempt bribery.

Me too voted for a separate "espionage" screen, but so far none mentioned at Firaxis, so I suppose we should still live with wandering spies

Bribing units and cities make me mad more often than not
Too often AI attack a town of mine with a fist of money and my well fed an guarded town become a traitors' nest

Bribing a unit should reduce its strenght (lowering morale, some soldiers diserting, etc.) or, max effect, disband it.
Bribing a town should reduce happiness, max effect putting it in revolt, not shifting its ownership as easily as you do with a used car

If Firaxis really want to keep a "overkilling" unit, develop a Trojan Horse unit, able to conquer the town from the inside.
In modern time upgrade it as "McDonald's franchise chain", with same effect, only quicker

	19-07-2001 20:37									#6
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I have always personally wondered (actually, this just came to me - I'm lying :-D ) If you would be able to sell your more advanced units to other nations, such as after the fall of the Soviet Union. It would be a nice way of income, and spies could also be used as the "brokers", trying to get a good price.

Or, not.

~ Pashalis

	20-07-2001 09:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith In modern time upgrade it as "McDonald's franchise chain", with same effect, only quicker

Don't they have that in Call to Power?

	20-07-2001 13:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Don't they have that in Call to Power?

Never played Call to Power, but I doubt. Oh well, if nothing else work, change the "water poisoning" command for spies with the "Cola evil substitution of Wine, Water and Beer".

Drink diluited sugar. Die fat and early.

(Just kidding, I drink Cola every now and then, too)

	20-07-2001 15:44									#9
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I think bribing units should be impossible later in the game, it is very unrealistic. Can you imagine the US side bribing Vietnamese units during the war?! Cultural strenght should be more important instead, perhaps you can use "Propaganda" to convince enemy units, much more realistic I think...

	21-07-2001 14:02									#10
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Yeah, i agree.