19-07-2001 04:18									#1
	Overbalanced SPs Tired of ads?

I stumbled across somebody's proposal for a big mod to the game, and saw that they were limiting some of the SPs on the grounds of their being overpowered.

Some SPs I saw up for the chop were: Empath Guild, Cloning Vats, and Cloudbase Academy.

However, ever since I started to play the game in single player, through every single level of difficulty, the one SP I thought was likely to be way overbalancing was the Telepathic Matrix.

In fact, the irony is that it usually comes so late that it's not built until late-game, by which time a clear victor is usually visible if not actual.

Is there some fine print that I have missed? Or does everybody else pretty much agree that the TM is a game-breaker of an SP?

	19-07-2001 05:43									#2
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Personally, I've only found the TM to be useful if I'm in a late game war (Conventional, anyway) when I'm capturing bases too far away to produce energy. Other than that, by the time it comes, it's too late to matter because I'm producing more than enough energy to control my drones and frequently have excess workers to turn into specialists as well.

	19-07-2001 06:01									#3
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Ditto.

The TM is useless to people who take the "Builder" stance, since by now they solved their Drone problems ages ago. A more warlike "momentum" player would find it useful, but if a momentum player hasn't ended the game by the time Eudaimonia comes out, he's already lost the game.

	19-07-2001 07:59									#4
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I suppose allowing one to build the Matrix on researching the Eudaimonia indicates the designers wanted to allow one to use either Eudaimonia or FM interchangeably. Both allow one to stay in +2 economy, but Eudaimonia adds a -2 morale factor. Since the Matrix suppresses drones, one can us FM and a large military simultaneously. It also permits the simultaneous use of Thought Control which makes that military elite, or Cybernetic, which somewhat cancels FM's -3 planet so that one can continue a Green War Machine strategy. So I can see why you believe the Matrix is overpowered.

However, I will typically use Eudaimonia and Power. Power cancels the negative morale, making Eudaimonia more attractive than FM/Thought Control due to its +2 industry, IMHO. With this SE setting, I typically have no drone problems at all, making the Matrix irrelevant.

What are your thoughts?

BTW, why was the Empath Guild chopped? This is the only way the Alien factions can get infiltrator information on other factions just like the Planetary Governor.

And why is the Cloudbased Academy on the list and not the Maritime Control Center? Both add +2 movements and provide the corresponding base facility for increased morale. I find the increased ship movement more important.

Now suppose the Command Nexus also added one movement point to gravel agitators! Now that would be a very desired SP!

Ned

	19-07-2001 11:03									#5
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In response to the original post:

The disbalance of the CBA, CV is not so much due to how powerfull they are, but due to the time you get them, basically they are too early in the tech tree and too cheap. The TM well... by the time you have TM you should have transcends, and these provide all the drone control you'll ever need (that's how I see it).

Ned:
First:
+2 Movement, Okay, I cant disagree that the +2 ship movement from the MCC is better than the +2 aircraft movement from CBA - but in many cases you can do without ships altogether. While aircraft are usfull under any conditions.


The other benefit: Compare the function of an Aerospace Complex with that of a naval yard.
NY: +100% defense vs ships, this is largely moot because coastal bases cant easily be attacked by ships, and active defense is quite effective vs ships, in contrast with
AC: +100% vs aircraft, passive defense is the only defense against aircraft, and land and sea bases are equally vunerable, this makes the +100% defense from the AC somewhat more valuable.
NY: +2 ship morale (including probe foils)
AC: +2 aircraft morale. Pretty much equal.
NY: Cost 8, AC: Cost 8. They are equal in that regard too.
Now, that sums up the bonuses from a NY, but the AC has several additional benefits.

Prevents airdrops. This is important.
Allows full use of satellites, including the ability to launch. Again a good thing.
Repairs aircraft: Well, the NY repairs ships, but usually ship battles tend to be won by a good margin, or not at all (I rarely seem to repair ships, other than by taking bases with them), while aircraft (particullary choppers) often get sent on near-suicide missions, then sent back to repair.

On the offense (capturing bases):
An instant NY is of dubious importance, the only real benefits being +100% ship defense, and quick repairs (both of which I feel are of dubious value).
An instant AC on the otherhand provides the +100% defense against aircraft counter-attacks. It also prevents airdrops, prehaps reducing the ability of the enemy to do ZoC tricks, or cut off your re-inforcments. Of less importance it allows immediate full resources from orbitals. Finally it provides a very usfull quick-repair pad, which keeps the invasion humming along nicely.

So, the short of it is the AC is such a usfull facility, for the economy, defense and offense that getting free ones is so good to be almost cheating. And the CBA does exactly that.

The only downside of the CBA is how incredibly vunerable your empire becomes should a planetbuster hit the CBA base, opening your entire empire to a brutal chop'n'drop strategy. Taking out the CBA base however would be much easier said than done. (the +2 movement alone would make getting close enough a headache).

	19-07-2001 19:01									#6
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Blake, Thanks for the reply. I now remember my reaction to first learning that SMACX had the CBA: Shock!

	19-07-2001 19:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Blake Repairs aircraft: Well, the NY repairs ships, but usually ship battles tend to be won by a good margin, or not at all (I rarely seem to repair ships, other than by taking bases with them), while aircraft (particullary choppers) often get sent on near-suicide missions, then sent back to repair.

Besides which, the damaged victor in a sea battle loses many movement points, unlike damaged aircraft. Unless the ship was already inside a base, it will probably get knocked off at the end of your turn. So much for repair . . .

I agree that the CBA is overpowered, comes too early, and greatly diminishes the importance of the Space Elevator (which anyway comes too late).

The HSA is slightly imbalancing. The addition of Algorithmic Enhancements was a step in the right direction to limit its power. However ,I think the Nethack should come at the same time or only slightly after HSA. They are like yin-yang SP's and proximity in the tech charts would make it likelier that different factions would have them, making for very interesting possibilities.

	19-07-2001 20:06									#8
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Hmmm…..interesting thread about the telepathic matrix. I had not thought it overpowered, mostly because of how late it comes in the game. However, it was one of the projects I was planning to move closer, and by making it available somewhat earlier, despite the fact that it will be doubled in price, it’s true that it may well be overpowered.

Perhaps then, this particular project should fall under the category of those projects providing free facilities (which would quadruple its total cost….this, coupled with the fact that crawlers are gone from the game, would mean that whomever builds it truly deserves the vast rewards it brings, as it would require a titanic commitment of resources.

Notes on the Empath Guild: I plan to remove it from the mod for a number of game balance reasons, the most important of which is the free infiltration of all factions.

With good probe defense, you can delay and possibly outright prevent another faction from gaining infiltration data on you, which players almost universally regard as being highly important. The only defense against the EG is to beat your opponent to it (which forces a beeline on players), or to destroy the base it’s built in (which forces a specific play style on players). And, as if free infiltration of all factions wasn’t enough, the Guild doubles your votes at the council table….OUCH! Given that it comes pretty early in the game and provides two brutally powerful abilities, I decided to nix it.

A secondary consideration was the fact that one of the Splinter Factions (Honshu) has his votes halved at council. If he somehow gains the Empath Guild, he suddenly gets normal votes. Odds are good that one of the other factions (my money would be on Ashaandi or “Mother” Washington) would wind up with the governorship, and now you’ve got two factions with infiltration data on you that you can do little about in the short run. UGH.

Anyway, sorry for that longer-than-I-expected ramble….that’s kinna the route my brain took when I decided the EG needed to head for the recycling tanks….

-=Vel=-

Late addition: Just saw Earwicker's notes about the Nethack terminus! That's *exactly* what I was thinking....and too, it goes a LONG ways in balancing out the HSA....one thing that'd be cool is if we put the Nethack along an entirely different branch of the tree....that way, it'd be almost impossible for one player to grab them both.

-V.

	19-07-2001 20:51									#9
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Vel, Swap Clinical Immortality with the Empath Guild. Both increase votes. The CI also acts like a second HGP. Ned

	19-07-2001 21:07									#10
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Maybe it's just my style of play, but the TM does something that no other base facility does, and it does it for EACH CITY you own. So restrictions like the University's drone problem simply never surface.

Of course, I agree that the late occurrence of this SP is a saving grace, but that's still no excuse for how powerful it is.

I'm beginning to tend towards favoring SPs which just give faction-wide facilities, like the Citizen's Defence Force and the Command Nexus. That means that the factions who didn't manage to build these can still get an equivalent effect, but only through expending more minerals and possibly paying more energy per turn.

	19-07-2001 22:50									#11
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An interesting notion:
Does anybody know if we can edit a project to make it carry a negative upkeep? That might be another way to address the TM….force the player building it to sacrifice energy every turn….::fiendish grin:: yes….that could create as many problems for the player as it solves. I like it! Ali, whatcha think? If it’s doable, would a hefty negative upkeep (we’re talking late game here, and the ability to run market and fight a war, so let’s say….200? 250? Credits per turn?) If you ante up, all is well. Your telepaths keep the drones at bay for you for another year. If you run out of money….well, the project still works, but you suffer the same effects you would if you had rioting drones….random facilities will be sold (destroyed) in order to give you the needed cash.

And by the way, I agree with you….in my mind, the “safest” facilities are those that provide free facilities, because every faction can get those benefits…some just pay more than others, and that’s cool. I DO think that, because those projects have sweeping, empire-wide effects, the prices should be radically higher than, say….a project that doubles economic output at a single base. That’s why, in the Mod I’m proposing, those projects got such a dramatic cost increase.

-=Vel=-

	20-07-2001 05:28									#12
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That's an idea I tried out for Civ2FW once. I was representing the modern day world, and had a Chinese civilization who could build a wonder called "Tibetan Reunity". This would act as the Eiffel Tower.

However, I tried to put an upkeep cost of 5 per turn for this Wonder once built, to reflect that Tibet autonomous region still requires continual investment by the Chinese central government. And of course, once you build the Wonder you can't get rid of it, just like in diplomacy you can't go back on a show of generosity without fearful repercussions.

Sadly, the Wonder remained costless once built. So Civ2FW didn't allow that sort of tinkering.

But yes, it would make the SPs that DIDN'T act like normal buildable stuff more of a liability. Say if you saddle the big ones with a heavy cost, and if the cost can't be met, the SP is disbanded at no refund, and any other faction with the appropriate tech can now build the SP!

Mwuhahahahahaha! *Dr Evil twitchpinky*

	20-07-2001 18:34									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think any drone contol SPs before empaths are
overpowered... but then I mostly play Zak.

Something I've found that really improves single
play is to remove sea colony pods from the game.
The AI can no longer spend its resources toward
littering the map with size-2 sea bases and has
to make the most of their land bases - they tend
to build those up to respectable levels. Combine
this with pre-made maps with "good" sized
continents with land bridges beteen them and
heavy pre-forrestation and I've found the single
game to be quite enjoyable at Transcend.

	20-07-2001 19:07									#14
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quote: Originally posted by moominparatrooper Something I've found that really improves single play is to remove sea colony pods from the game. The AI can no longer spend its resources toward littering the map with size-2 sea bases and has to make the most of their land bases - they tend to build those up to respectable levels.

I have often seen where Domai and Aki-Zeta have created large and fairly-productive sea bases, particularly when they are pacted with each other. Keeping idiot Yang, Santiago, and Miriam from them would be a godsend.

While we're moving things around, any thoughts on psi-gates? I almost never build them because they come about when there is orbital insertion. If earlier, however, they would function like Civ2 airports and could be quite useful. The AI might even use them effectively . . .

	20-07-2001 20:17									#15
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Psi gates are enormously useful when playing on really big maps. They get air and seapower across the map quite efficiently. There really is no substitute for a WAVE STRING copter.

The AI knows how to use the Gates. Once, I set a copter on automatic. The AI transported to a Gate across the map. Then is sought out and destroyed an enemy ship I had no clue was even there.

Again, Gates are best used in getting Choppers to the scene of the action. Imagine each of your bases producing a chopper each turn and transporting it to the immediate vicinty of the war through a gate you have rush built on a base you have just taken from the enemy. This is almost unfair, isn't it?

IIRC, Airports in CIV could receive only one unit at a time. Not so in SMACX.

Right now, I have no opinion on moving them up significantly due to their extreme power. However, I do agree that Orbital Insertion and the Gates should be more widely separated in time. Perhaps introduce Gates with Centauri PSI.

As to SeaLurks, I simply moved them to Progenitor Psyc. You get them early, but the early units are very weak. Good only for exploring and pod popping, not for military assaults.

Ned

	20-07-2001 21:07									#16
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That's a bit early, doncha think? It negates the Pirates early sea advantage...

	20-07-2001 22:30									#17
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Perhaps, but again, the units are very weak.

I just like to report that the move of Genejacks to earlier in the game may be the final straw! I am currently playing a game that is a real struggle. I am way ahead on the power meter, but have no treaties, let alone pact mates. Everyone else is allied against me and are just about equal in tech. The Drones just got the Cloning Vats. I don't even have the tech yet. The AI's mineral and lab production is just as good as mine.

I may win, but it is not certain. The game with the pacifist, build, terraforming restrictions tweaks, and the move of Genejack earlier is real tough.

Ned

	23-07-2001 23:30									#18
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I used to think the HSA was too powerful, but after playing a few games where it went to other factions I've changed my mind.

The TM is the only SP that seems overbalancing to me...better if it reduced the number of drones/city by 2 or 3 rather than prevent them from rioting entirely.

The SPs add another layer (in addition to social engineering choices and the set advantages and disadvantages of each faction) in making the factions be different from each other. In the CIV games, the different players are identical, except for the advantages given for whatever Wonders may have been built. I think this is one of the main reasons for having them in the game.

My preference would be for more SPs, and preferably ones that do *not* give an improvement to every base. Since (once the tech has been discovered) anyone can build a Quantum Widget Hangar, this type of SP doesn't do much to differentiate the factions.

In particular I dislike the CBA. The Aerospace Complex (like the Children's Creche) gives a lot of advantages, both offensive and defensive. The discovery of Air Power is a major turning point in the game, and the existance of an AC in a base indicates that that base has been fitted for air power and entered the world of modern warfare. To be able to get it automatically seems unfair.

I've never considered the Empath Guild to be at all important as a SP. I usually will only build it when there is no other project available.

Ideas I've had for additional projects:

The Expeditious Traveller: allows units to travel 4 squares on roads rather than 3.

The Majestic Forest: Allows one more mineral to be produced from forest squares.

Energy Extractor: allows one more energy to be produced from fungus squares.

Psionic Damper: when built in a base, that base is immune from all psionic combat (offensive and defensive).

Emergency Supply: Halves the rate of starvation, i.e. when a city has a negative nutrient production, that number is halved.

Air Cargo Supply Company: Allows needlejet transport units to carry 4 rather than 1 unit; increases needlejet units' movement rate by 2.

	24-07-2001 00:02									#19
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I like the psionic dampener, but what would happen to the worms?

	24-07-2001 00:35									#20
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That Psionic dampener is interesting. In all my most recent games, I have really fallen in love with the Great Green War Machine strategy: Get the Nural Amplifier, the Pholus Mutagen and later the Dream Twister to make your Demon Boils invincible then dominate the seas with Sealurks and the air and Ground with Locusts. So the Psionic dampener would be an extremely powerful SP.

BTW, the Nural Amplifier is an extremely powerful SP. My Great and Demon Boil Sealurk navy cannot be beaten, ship to lurk, by any ship in the hands of the enemy - they can usually withstand two or more successive attacks. There have been long discussions here on the best combination of naval armor and weapons. However, no ship with any combination of weapons/armor compares to the Demon Boil Sealurk with the Nural Amplifier. (And Blake, no the AI has not figured out to shell the Sealurk first before it attacks. So you put your navy on auto to find the Sealurks, and the next thing that happens is the AI attackes the lurk and your ship goes pop!)

	24-07-2001 00:46									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The craziest one is definitely the cloning vats...that is instant victory if you can provide the infastructure to support it.

	24-07-2001 02:25									#22
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My thoughts on the projects is that any which give free facilities are very strong indeed. Consider that you have 12 bases and you build the Command Nexus giving you a command center in every base that cost around 40 minerals each (?) you've just made 180 minerals since the Command Nexus costs 300 minerals on top of the energy in maintenance you save each turn. Now consider the Cloud Base Academy, Maritime Control Center, The Cyborg Factory, the Citizens Defense Force, and the one that gives you holo theatres for each network node and the numbers and uses for each keep growing.

All that aside the ones I find most troubling are the Cloud Base Academy, the one that gives you free holo theatres for each network node, the Empath Guild, and the Hunter-Seeker Alogrythm.

The Cloud Base Academy because, post airpower, Aerospace Complexes are an integral part of any successful defense and important to a quality offense. The thing is you get both from this when you take an enemys base. Not to mention the ability to build satellites and reap the benefits of satellites.

The free holo theatres because of the cost of a holo theatre is 3 energy a turn and because in order to achieve a decent pop boom the holo theatre is critical. On top of that the faction specific benefits the Univeristy gains from this project is simply too great for a University player to pass up.

The Empath Guild not so much for the extra votes, but because infiltration is an important aspect of a successful offense and strong probe defense should be an important part of a successful defense. You throw this project and the governership into the mix and your looking at a potential of two of your adversaries having "free" infiltratioin on you. I'm not fond of that benefit for the governor either.

The Hunter-Seeker for the exact opposite reasons of the Empath Guild. I think a rock solid probe defense, particularly in SMAC, is just going too far.

Beyond these projects I haven't put a lot of thought into which are strong and which aren't as my games haven't gone too much farther than this. Though I find little use for the Psi enhancing facilities like the Neural Amp and Dream Twister as they're both easily countered by a simple 1-1-1 trance scout or empath scout. I also only find the Cloning Vats useful for factions like the Hive, and Morgan who can't pop boom in SMAC, other than that anyone can boom which, to me, is the main benefit of the project.

	24-07-2001 02:30									#23
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I think that players should have the option to not submit to the planetary council. They wouldn't get a vote, and they wouldn't receive the benefits/penalties of the council. e.g., no infiltration from the governor, but no 500 credits if they salvage the core.

	24-07-2001 03:49									#24
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The cloning vats also have the benefit of nullifying negative effects for Power and Thought Control. This means for factions running Power it also has the effect of +2 industry, for those running TC +3 support. +2 industry is hardly insignificant, although support problems are easily nullified by clean reactors. But considering power alone - usually the +2 support from power is neutralized by the -2 industry, but with the CV, if you also run Police State (or build the +2 support SP) then suddenly you have +4 support AND massive bases, with no industry penalty, this reads hordes of high quality military units, with no slot wasted on clean.

Generally the most unbalanced SP's are the ones which incur both a military and economic benefit, usually the smaller benefit is the one which is just enough for the SP to be classified "Overpowered" rather than just powerful, for the CV it is the impunity, power. (Possibly I could accept it if it was just a simple pop-boom). CBA, the orbital operations aspect, if the CBA gave +1 air morale, +2 air movement benefit then it would be acceptable, and somewhat more logical (a pilot training facility which makes it easier to get elite pilots).

I suppose the empath guild also has a economic (easier to get gov) and military (free infiltration) benefit, although the military benefit counts twice, because it is likely you'll prevent another player from getting free infiltration via Gov, personally I don't consider the guild overpowered, although that could be due to a lack of MP experience.

	24-07-2001 04:04									#25
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In one of my games I'm in as we speak, one player got the Cloning Vats, Cloudbase Acadamy and started taking off in pop (a couple sky hydroponics farms later), and took the presidency from me.
I decided that those two with the presidency was WAY too destabilizing, so launched a first strike.
Three years later, 1/3 of the world population has died (so far! still falling!), the seas will rise AT LEAST 1266 meters (probably much more), I am seeing 20 or so outbreaks of locusts per turn, and we have had a volcano erupt.
It's probably going to get much much worse.

I'd say the most destabilizing thing is: whatever makes someone nervous.
Indra

	07-08-2001 03:41									#26
	re: SP maintenance cost Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx An interesting notion: Does anybody know if we can edit a project to make it carry a negative upkeep? That might be another way to address the TM….force the player building it to sacrifice energy every turn….::fiendish grin:: yes….that could create as many problems for the player as it solves. I like it! Ali, whatcha think? If it’s doable, would a hefty negative upkeep (we’re talking late game here, and the ability to run market and fight a war, so let’s say….200? 250? Credits per turn?) If you ante up, all is well. Your telepaths keep the drones at bay for you for another year. If you run out of money….well, the project still works, but you suffer the same effects you would if you had rioting drones….random facilities will be sold (destroyed) in order to give you the needed cash. -=Vel=-

I haven't seen a reply to this question, but I don't see why it couldn't be done, since the SPs are listed in the base's infrastructure as if they were Facilities, the only apparent difference being only one of each can be built on the planet.

; Base Facilities
; Name, Cost, Maint, Preq, Free, Effect

An example of a good example:
Energy Bank, 8, 1, IndEcon, QuanMac, Economy Bonus
You get a better economy for building the bank, but it costs you to keep it running -- Accountants don't come cheap.

The Weather Paradigm, 20, 0, Ecology, Disable, Terraform Rate +50%, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1,
Change this to...
The Weather Paradigm, 20, 10, Ecology, Disable, Terraform Rate +50%, 0, 0, 0, 2, 1,
...and you get the faster terraforming, but pay every year for the wear and tear on the machinery (and the wages for a 3rd shift of workers ).

	07-08-2001 06:05									#27
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Gw, Have you tried it? Does it work? Ned

	09-09-2001 08:22									#28
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quote: Gw, Have you tried it? Does it work? Ned

Between being sick and changing jobs and life in general ,
Yes, I finally tried it , and
No, it doesn't work .
(I tested it with the Merchant Exchange, since it occurs early enough and has no Facility associated with it. The SP was listed as usual in Base Operations [F4], but no cost was listed in Energy Banks [F3], and there was no unaccounted deduction.)

Ned: Thank you for the friendly reminder to "test-before-I-post" .

	10-09-2001 02:04									#29
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Maybe it was a bug in the game, but when I built the Telepathic Matrix, it did not eliminate the drones. The TP just eliminates riots from drones, but you still get the drones. So, a city can have loads of drones and have no riot. Of course the drones do not produce any ressources which is a really bad thing. Since it does not eliminate drones, I don't think it is as overpowerful as people say, especially since it does come so late in the game.

The SP I think is trully too powerful is the Cloning Vats. The pop boom makes things way too good, especially if you are trying to become Gov or Supreme Leader.

	10-09-2001 07:53									#30
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The % of POP BOOM is one of the mostUNBALANCING elements of the game, the CV is only the "construct" for you can pop boom through social engineering+children's creche. The CV should have given +2 growth instead. ( This was much discussed a year ago ).

The CA is too POWERFUL , I agree, but we must admit: aerospace complexes are....powerful!

The TM is completely IRRELEVENT in a SP game: too late at the end, you already dominate the map.

The Manifold Harmonics are Exceedingly POWERFUL , but again too late at the end.

In my book, the most perfectly balanced SP is the PEG, at a reasonable stage of a game where you can save the costly Energy banks for something else.