20-07-2001 05:04									#1
	Rivers Tired of ads?

Bridges are something that are very important in real life for many reasons. Such as, for transporting military, trade, easy access, etc... This post will be quite long and I hope everybody can understand it. I think it will improve realism, the challenge of playing in a way, and increase the fun level.

A way to make bridges more important could be to make it impossible to get a movement bonus (1/3 point) for units traveling by river (same movement access as the tile that it's under) if there isn't a bridge or a boat to travel in. So if the river is going accross a forest and you have a horsemen the horsemen would only be able to travel one tile at a time accross that type of tile. If the river is going accross grassland and you have a horsemen the horsemen could move two tiles at a time. accross that type of tile

Yes there should be some type of riverboat that could transport a unit across the river. If there isn't a boat to travel with, along a river, the river tile would take up a full point of movement for the unit. This would resemble that the unit is traveling by land along the river and not actually down the river. Each boat could only transport one unit at a time. The movement of the boat would be determined by how many movement points the unit has. So if a warrior was being transported by a riverboat it would get to move 3 tiles. The riverboat isn't that appealing of a unit unless you live near a long river and/or need easier access to something with the river. A riverboat could only be built by cities that are next to rivers.

If you had a road going accross the river the unit would be traveling at a 1/3 point movement rate, even without the riverboat. If the you had a railroad going accross the river the unit would be traveling at 0 point movement rate, again even without the riverboat.

All this would still make rivers valuable as long as you have boats to travel down rivers.

Does everybody understand my system? I'm sure there are some flaws in it but I think it would be a nice touch. Maybe for Civ4, if there is to be one. If anybody has any suggestions or complaints about it please speak up.

Last edited by TechWins on 20-07-2001 at 05:11

	20-07-2001 05:43									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

yes techwins, i understand your system, but i am a bit confused of its importance.

IMHO, its like the railroad system i want, where theres actually a train unit carrying units.

i hate WEB-LIKE rail systems, they're just so fake.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC...

i understand what you are saying, how home a civ that only has warriors (a dude with fur and a stick) can wrap around a huge river in a few turns.

theres never going to be an actual riverboat unit, i just can't possibly see one being implimented.

perhaps SOMETHING could be done about it, but i have no ideas.

	20-07-2001 05:57									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: i am a bit confused of its importance.

Well, in thinking of my idea I kind of got away from it's original purpose, to make bridges more important. Anyway though, I don't think it's all that important but it would be an improvement to the game IMO.

	20-07-2001 06:28									#4
	Re: Rivers Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by TechWins Bridges are something that are very important in real life for many reasons. Such as, for transporting military, trade, easy access, etc... A way to make bridges more important could be to make it impossible to get a movement bonus (1/3 point) for units traveling by river (same movement access as the tile that it's under) if there isn't a bridge or a boat to travel in. So if the river is going accross a forest and you have a horsemen the horsemen would only be able to travel one tile at a time accross that type of tile. If the river is going accross grassland and you have a horsemen the horsemen could move two tiles at a time. accross that type of tile

The way I read this is prior to discovery of bridges, you want to add discovery of River Boats. And before this happen all units will use all of their movment points crossing a river (one move one tile). Not a bad idea, however in Civ 1 & 2 a horse can move two tiles in grass and plains. Slowing him down when crossing a river without a bridge is OK, but if he can only move one tile without a river boat, he still could only move one tile with a river boat. Now if they would increase his movement points to 3 tiles per/turn than your idea would be great. Without a boat he could only move one tile, with a boat 2, tiles, and with a bridge 3 tiles.
Now going up or down the river, IMOP he could move all 3 movement point, after the discovery of River Boats.

	20-07-2001 09:34									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I am not too sure what you want to suggest. In Civ a player can't build a road across a river unless she has Bridge Building. Also boats were invented eons ago, probably in the Paleolithic Age. Even the hunter-gatherers had them.

	20-07-2001 12:52									#6
	Support Apolyton

What if rivers had 1/2 movement and roads had 1/4?

	20-07-2001 12:59									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm... I feel that it is quite realistic as it is... Moving by boats on a river is certainly faster than moving by foot (or, in long term, even horses), even if on a road. However, building the boats takes time (true, it's only a few days from a year, but it is still time) so triple movement on rivers is quite realistic.

OTOH, movement bonus for rivers should be, if the game needs to be realistic, ditched in the modern age (or sooner).

- That is, all of this only if units can really move ON rivers... not only over them.

	20-07-2001 15:03									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just try to get an elephant on one of those ancient boats

	20-07-2001 23:56									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Just try to get an elephant on one of those ancient boats

In the Punic War the Carthagenians had sent many elephants in boats across the Mediterranean to Europe. You also have to think that this is just a game.

quote: The way I read this is prior to discovery of bridges, you want to add discovery of River Boats. And before this happen all units will use all of their movment points crossing a river (one move one tile). Not a bad idea, however in Civ 1 & 2 a horse can move two tiles in grass and plains. Slowing him down when crossing a river without a bridge is OK, but if he can only move one tile without a river boat, he still could only move one tile with a river boat. Now if they would increase his movement points to 3 tiles per/turn than your idea would be great. Without a boat he could only move one tile, with a boat 2, tiles, and with a bridge 3 tiles.

No, that's not how it would work. A horsemen would be able to travel 6 tiles in a riverboat. You are correct about the discovery of riverboats coming before bridge building. I don't feel that bridge building is all that important to discover early on in the game. It needs to have some increased importance.

Having this system would increase the importance of bridges at an earlier time in the game. So overall the importance of bridges would be increased. With riverboats being a "poor mans" trireme, it would make you want to build more bridges so you wouldn't have to build many riverboats. If you didn't have many bridges, you also have a lot of rivers, you would need riverboats. If anybody can think of some ways to improve on my system I'm open to hear all of them.

	21-07-2001 01:17									#10
	Tired of ads?

OH I THINK I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.

are you saying, for example, a HORSEMAN (2 moves) moves from a regular grassland ONTO a river tile, it wastes ALL of it's movement points, because he must physically CROSS the river?

	21-07-2001 03:13									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Lets say the horseman is already on the river, the horseman would be able to use all of it's movement points if the river was going through grassland. If the river was going through forest the horseman would only be able to use one movement point. So when traveling on the river the same basic tile movement rates are applied.

If the horseman isn't on the river yet and he wishes to get on the river tile. Regardless of what the river is going through (i.e grassland, mountains, plains, jungle) the horseman will waste all of his movement points getting onto that tile. To represent what UberKrux said, "are you saying, for example, a HORSEMAN (2 moves) moves from a regular grassland ONTO a river tile, it wastes ALL of it's movement points, because he must physically CROSS the river". This system isn't exactly 100% accurate (realism) but it is fairly simple and would add some realism to river travel. While, IMO, not taking away from fun, maybe even adding some fun.

I'd like to thank UberKrux for improving the system because I didn't really state that in my original post.

	21-07-2001 06:43									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

aight, i gotcha now. your saying navigating down a forested river is a lot different than navigating down a swampped (is this a word??) one.

	21-07-2001 06:51									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: aight, i gotcha now. your saying navigating down a forested river is a lot different than navigating down a swampped (is this a word??) one.

I'm not really trying to install for navigation to be different. I just want the land movement to be how it would if there wasn't even a river there. I want it to be this way because you shouldn't get a river bonus when you're not in a riverboat because if you're traveling along a river on the land you're not actually in the river. Therefore you shouldn't get the river bonus unless you're in a riverboat.