20-07-2001 23:19									#1
	Prevent them to escape. Get a bigger avatar today!

Is there anyone whe can tell me how I can prevent a gorvernement to escape when i take over their capital?
(and mayby while at it also splitting up their country)

The only time I know when they don't escape is when there is no money.

In my current game the mongols are the most powerfull nation besides me,and they just kicked out the germans.Is there a way i could force a new dark blue empire in the world?(Mongols have >42 cities)

Shade

	20-07-2001 23:38									#2
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There really isn't anything you can do about it. As you noted, as long as they've got +1,000 in gold, they'll probably escape. If they're the strongest, they'll probably split though.

What you can do though is be prepared to follow-up with enough units for at least the second capital and spies and cash to to pickup some of the cities farther from the new capital. You know that everytime they loose a capital, their treasury goes down by +1,000, and everytime they loose a city it also goes down. Pretty soon you'll get them under 1.000 and they won't be able to run anymore.

	20-07-2001 23:44									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

Damn,...
I already tried a dozen times to take over using the cheat mode but no split occured??

shade

	21-07-2001 02:08									#4
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I think that if you take the capital of any civ that is NOT number 1 on the powergraph, it doesn't split.
Does it always split when the civ is number 1?
I would say yes, but I'm not sure whether this has been thoroughly tested.

	21-07-2001 04:02									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

OK - they build a new Palace and spend money - so their cities are that much cheaper to bribe!

I have played hundreds of games and have never seen a civ split.

--------------

SG(2)

	21-07-2001 05:03									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thats because you are always the PG leader.

There must be less than 7 civs.

I had one recently very early.Spain destoyed Indians at around 3600bc.Barb legions sacked Madrid a couple turns later.poof..Sioux arrive....2 turns later..Sioux destroyed by barbs.Top 2 cities red and I'm still looking for a spot

who says you can't get barbs before turn 16?

	21-07-2001 06:16									#7
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the last time i saw a civ split was about 2 years ago, when i still had civ2 original, and always played at cheiftain. So there is no way it has anything to do with power graph (not that i have noticed).

and i hope it dont, because in most games (i am now hovering between prince and king now) i am the most powerful nation. And i always look forward to spliting an empire late in the game. never happens though

	21-07-2001 23:14									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

I belive that Civs should split more often and give us more of a cool game.

	22-07-2001 05:16									#9
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also, when a civ hasd massive unhappines, some of the cities should break off and form new nations (like ow the USA was created, or the netrherlands).

and there should be no lmit to the number of civs.

	22-07-2001 06:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man also, when a civ hasd massive unhappines, some of the cities should break off and form new nations (like ow the USA was created, or the netrherlands). and there should be no lmit to the number of civs.

not sure it should happen automatically, in the case of the USA the local militia had to first beat the British Red Coats... so in case of civ, the local population should have to find an army to fight the citys garrisoned units. As with US war, other nations could then assist via naval blockades, gifts of gold to incite the revolts, or gifts of units to do the fighting ..

	22-07-2001 15:41									#11
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You know what's really funny:when I take over the capital as the Americans(that's the nation I play) then they just move their capital,wen I take over their capital with the Egyptians( 3rd powerfull nation but has only like 10 cities ,when Mongols have 50) then they split always????

Could it be that Your enemy needs to have at least dubble the number of cities you have??

Another question,I just lately installed the 2.42 patch ,andduring the game somehow my reputation became Atroscious,iT now has been more then 2000 years since I attacked a nation myself but my reputation doesn't change at all(I also have the Eiffel-tower)
Is this a onetime glidsh or a bad habbit???

shade:banned:

	23-07-2001 10:18									#12
	Re: Prevent them to escape. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by shade Is there anyone whe can tell me how I can prevent a gorvernement to escape when i take over their capital? (and mayby while at it also splitting up their country) The only time I know when they don't escape is when there is no money. In my current game the mongols are the most powerfull nation besides me,and they just kicked out the germans.Is there a way i could force a new dark blue empire in the world?(Mongols have >42 cities) Shade

I not sure what you mean by this "Not Escape" do you mean you want them never to build a new palace again, or you want them to become your puppet controlled governement so the whole civ is now yours?? I didnt think you could do much to stop them setting up a new palalce ////

	23-07-2001 15:48									#13
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I play with the Americans(but renamed them).
The escaping government isn't important anymore because I know now they can escape and split up.(see previous post for more detail)

shade
(they will become my slaves eventually)

	23-07-2001 17:16									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If you don't like escaping capitals you could always hack the rules.txt file and associate 'Palace' with 'Nuclear Fusion' or some such - not tried this, but I guess it would work ...

	23-07-2001 17:33									#15
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thx SG.

The reason why i didn't wanted them to escape was,because I thought they would split then.=> the splitting part is my only goal.

shade

	23-07-2001 17:55									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by shade You know what's really funny:when I take over the capital as the Americans(that's the nation I play) then they just move their capital,wen I take over their capital with the Egyptians( 3rd powerfull nation but has only like 10 cities ,when Mongols have 50) then they split always????

Wow!!! I was surprised that nobody picked up on this. Could it be that part of the problem is that in order for a civ to split, it has to be ranked HIGHER, not necessarily #1, than the attacking civ?

Presumably this all depends on the "PowerGraph rankings".

Anyone figure this out yet?

	23-07-2001 23:04									#17
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Seems to be relative to the number of cities of the splitter and the splitee. If the nation whose capitol you take has more cities than you, it splits. The old part may still move the palace. Must have fewer than 7 civs in play. The city proportion is actually more than just "more cities." It's more like 1.5 to 1 or greater, but I don't know the exact ratio. I have been supreme with 12 cities and split the number 3 nation on the power graph which had 21 cities. The split was very disproportionate, 4 to the new and 16 to the old (with one to me, of course). (This happened over a year ago so not all details are still clear.)

	24-07-2001 01:00									#18
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the number of cities doesn't matter.
Did a test this afternoon
me(american,something like 50Cities)
Mongol(something like 50 cities but more than me)
using the cheat mode i used the mongols to take over my capital+>imediate split
I think it might be caused by the civscore (me 1400,mongol 799)

when the country splits all cities within a circular radius of (i don't know how much) stay the other change.

Shade

	24-07-2001 01:48									#19
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but what is the deciding factor?
shorley sid meirer has said something about it!

	24-07-2001 13:47									#20
	Taking Berlin Tired of ads?

I came to remember that there was a lot of civ splitting during the ww2 scenario with smaller civs, and I just checked what happened when taking Berlin. Amazing! Look!

1) With the Spaniards:
The Axis is number 2 on the powergraph (Russians number 1)
Axis=24 cities; Spain=17 cities; Axis civ splits.

2) With the Turks:
The Axis is number 2 on the powergraph (Russians number 1)
Axis=17 cities; Turks=15 cities; Axis civ doesn't split.

3) With the French:
The Axis is number 2 on the powergraph (Russians number 1)
Axis=25 cities; French=25 cities; Axis civ splits.
Axis capital moved to Dresden. French take Dresden on the same turn. Axis civ splits again! (giving us a renewed Aztec civ in eastern Europe ).

In short, this shows that a lot of research remains to be done in that field. The idea I had in mind about a civ being number 1 on the powergraph was wrong. Relative number of cities also seems to be quite questionable. And the result of my second blow on Dresden remains to be explained.

Open your labs, folk!
Hit the head! Make them split!
And tell us why!

	24-07-2001 20:12									#21
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have a look at these factors then:

Military strength,
Happiness,


perhaps its a string of events that cause the split. like, not only do you take the capital, but you have to have done something else to them in that turn?

	24-07-2001 22:27									#22
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La Fayette,

Perhaps the second Axis split (upon the capture of Dresden yielding the Aztecs) happened because splitting is based on the civ's "power" at the beginning of the turn.

Also, I like Andy-Man's "happiness" suggestion. Regardless of how it really works, it certainly makes sense that a less happy civ would be more likely to have a civil war.

	25-07-2001 00:36									#23
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I think the 2 factors of Andy-Man can be rulled out

Americans(me)( nr1 ,little 50 cities ,200 Mongols(nr2 , big 50 cities(more then me),army >350,score 799)
Egypt(nr3, 6 or 7 cities,army <100,score ???)

Egypt splits me and mongols
mongols split me
I can't split mongols.
=> by by army factor
=>there are no cities in the world unhappy

Shade
PS:I think maybe score should be considered.

	25-07-2001 23:41									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

(I accidently posted this on the civ split thread,oeps )
Did some serious testing this afternoon and here are some conclusions:
taker=country that takes the capital
haver=country that has the capital
1)The haver does not have to be NR1 on the power graph but he has to be placed higher than the taker
NR2 only splits NR1
NR3 splits NR1 and NR2
...
2)The absoluet number of cities of the haver and taker don't seem to be important.
A 45 city empr DOES NOT split the 50 city empr (*)
A 50 city empr splits a 45 city empr
A 6 city empr splits a 50 city empr and a 45 city empr
A 2 city empr splits a 6 city empr, 45 city empr and 50 city empr

my best gues is that it has something to do with the score
45 city empr=> 1497 pt (*)
50 city empr=> 635 pt (*)
6 city empr=> 96 pt
2 city empr=> 36 pt
Although I couldn't verify this using the cheat mode to increase the score of some empr's=> is this caused by the cheat i don't know.

any ideas???

shade:banned:

	26-07-2001 00:07									#25
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How do you know what the point value is for each civ? I know the power graph is point based, but I've not seen any place where the total is displayed for each civ. Or is this the civ score? That is not the same as the powergraph point basis.

	26-07-2001 00:15									#26
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I used the civ score.
the power graph is limited and would give me an inconsistency
Me and the Mongols have reached the top of the powergraph we can't go higher => I guess this means we have the same power graph points( or isn't this so,because it's just a logical guess)
The Mongols can split my empire but i can't split theirs.
If you look at the civ score then I am number one and they are number 2.
I'm just guessing like anyone else.

Shade

	26-07-2001 01:32									#27
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so it looks like it is a cros between civ score and postition on PG.

I am always number one on both

	26-07-2001 03:00									#28
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quote: Originally posted by shade ( any ideas??? shade:banned:

One idea:
Contrary to general opinion (including my own opinion) a few days ago, your results confirm what my 'taking Berlin' had shown: namely the 'haver' doesn't need to be number 1 on the powergraph + the number of cities owned by the 'haver' and the 'taker' is not (or not completely) relevant.
'Capital must be taken' remains true.
'Less than 7 civs' remains true.
'Haver stronger than taker' seems to be true.
There remains to discover what is precisely used to measure the relative strength of the 'haver' and the 'taker'.
Thank you for your testing, shade.

	26-07-2001 10:15									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Interesting thread.

I've played civ2 since the day it came out, and i have NEVER seen a split in civ2. I saw it in civ1 often. . but never have in civ2. odd.

to tell you the truth, i thought that maybe it couldn't happen in civ2. ya learn something new every day.

	26-07-2001 14:12									#30
	more info on splits Tired of ads?

It's sort of bizarre that the rules seem to change depending on either the number of civs or the number of turns passed. But I did figure out a couple of things.

1) Of course, there needs to be an open civ spot. Thus, a civ will NEVER split if there are 7 active civs.

2) In order to "Move capital" a civ has to have a minimum of 1000 gold. Or some minimum of gold - it was always 1000 gold in the wwII.scn I was play testing on at Emperor level. Thus, 1000 would make the capital move, while 999 would cause a split.

3) There has to be a city of at least half the size of the capital (rounded down) or a minimum of size 8, for a capital to move. With Moscow size 21 and Leningrad size 10, the capital would move - but if Moscow was 22 or Leningrad 8, the civ would split.

There seems to be some connection between the order of the city's establishment and the size of the city as to which city becomes the new capital. Difficult to figure out just now.

4) With respect to the splitting civ, the most distant cities will become a part of the new civ. However, the number of cities assigned to each civ is based on the size of the cities. With 10 size 1 cities, the civ split 5-5; with 2 size 8 (nearest to each other)and 8 size 1 cities, the civ split 2-8 with all of the size 1 cities becoming the new civ.

However, as I hinted to above, the rules about spliting/moving didn't always work. When there is one large civ (artificially created by me) and all of the other ones are small, then the large civ will ALWAYS split. There was nothing I could do to make the capital move. Strange but I was getting too frustrated to continue trying to work it out. Maybe later...