22-07-2001 12:08									#1
	Alpha - Beta - Gold - Sold? Increase Your PM Length

O.K., assuming the "October 2001" date on the latest ad really holds up (God help us all if it does), where must Civ 3 be right now? Let's work this backwards:

Sold: In stores by the end of October, let's say.

Gold: Obviously to go gold, you need at least a few rounds with the publisher...so assuming two weeks (?) to copy the master CD, get it into boxes, and deliver to stores, the final gold candidate would need to be ready by early October, which means most of September would need to be open for the 'kick the CD back to Firaxis for some fixes' process, right?).

Beta: So if September is mainly dedicated to polishing things up and getting the Gold CD ready, August MUST be the last and only time to run this game through complete Beta testing, and there's really no time to do major art changes at this point unless you want to risk last minute changes breaking other parts of the game, etc.

CONCLUSION: Assuming the screenshots we have seen represent late Beta work, we are in big trouble. Further assuming that a major beta effort should be or is nearly underway and we have heard NOTHING about it also tells me we are in big trouble.

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT PRE-ORDER CIV 3 IF YOU VALUE YOUR TIME AND MONEY. Pick it up on the cheap around April when the first few patches will also be patiently waiting for you.

	22-07-2001 12:12									#2
	Got spare money?

I think that your new avatar is very appropriate yin; you just won't let go.

	22-07-2001 12:14									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i think he might be onto something though... but arent we all used to games and other software not being right on first release, people dont do beta ttesting anymore they release the beta version for sale then ship a patch or worse yet charge for an upgrade

	22-07-2001 12:15									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, Markos pulled his Admin rank and FORCED it on me. Nice of him, eh?

	22-07-2001 12:30									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Can I be President of the Optimists club? I think Civ3's going to blow us all out of the water. Including yin.

My avatar could be a lamb going to the slaughter.

	22-07-2001 16:33									#6
	Put an end to popups!

No it will be a great game! And Yin is just playing here.

	22-07-2001 18:31									#7
	rethinking unthinkable Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

yin
i agree with you, but graphics look SO UGLY that i simply cannot believe that they are beta. remember shakycam video. graphics there did not look anything like the screenshots you posted. plus, i haven't heard any e3 previewers complaining about graphics - they were rather reserved about the possibility to pull it off for the 3rd consecutive time...

	22-07-2001 19:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why do you stop there Yin? Why not go back further?


Sold: in the end of October/possably early Novermber?

Gold: I agree, maybe a month in a half to two months is needed... thats September and some of August...

Beta: How about end of June and July go to Beta testing? Whens the last time we've seen an update, news snipit, etc straight from the horses mouth? When was that slide show of screenshots explaining Resources put up? Wasn't it like early June or even end of May? From then to July... What have they been doing? I'm sure its not re-inventing the wheel. They already have new additions to the game added... the only thing left logicaly is minor things. Like graphics, bug hunting, and beta testing.

Conclusion: The game has been in beta testing for some time now. lose ends are getting tied, Gameplay and graphics are being carved in stone.

	23-07-2001 00:00									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I still say that the game's graphics look better than Alpha Centauri's graphics, and they are light.

As long as they are not too light- the game will be worth preordering... but I have never preordered a game.

My advice: Wait till it's in stores, and then buy it after reading 2 reviews and looking at the box.

	23-07-2001 02:31									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

More than likely the schedule you gave is for the game that you suggested - Sid's Sim Golf and Civ III is not expected until some time next year.

I just can't believe that they are a big enough developement firm to take on two games at the same time and be able to be beta testing them both at the same times. If they are, well good luck Firaxis.

	23-07-2001 07:50									#11
	Re: Alpha - Beta - Gold - Sold? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by yin26 O.K., assuming the "October 2001" date on the latest ad really holds up (God help us all if it does), where must Civ 3 be right now? Let's work this backwards:

Yin when do they make the 12 scenarios? Will they assigned one or two people to work on them?

	23-07-2001 13:00									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yet another great question...

	23-07-2001 13:04									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

have they mentioned the number 12 as a fact?

	23-07-2001 13:24									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

back in my days of glory when i was playtesting europa universalis, it took a team of over 100 people about 4 months to iron out glitches. Make that into your calculations. And yes,we were playing it heavily.
By the way, I read that someone posted here on the forum that EU was disappoiinting. It is a good game, it was heavily playtested yet it had considerable bugs when released. hope civ3 is not like that when released...

	23-07-2001 16:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

That is true, and EU was at version 1.06 before there was an English edition. The one thing I love about Paradox is that it was very playable at that point yet they still went on to accept suggestions calmly and release 1.07, 1.08, 1.09 and remain willing to do a 1.10, 1.11 and so on until they feel that they have produced the best version possible. If Firaxis have half their commitment then provided the gold version isn't irredemably flawed with stuff that cannot be patched, I believe Civ 3 will be a worthwhile purchase.

	23-07-2001 19:12									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Keep in mind that if you try to look for weaknesses in a game, you're not going to have as much fun than if you sit down, relax, and enjoy yourself...

	24-07-2001 05:19									#17
	Got spare money?

quote: Keep in mind that if you try to look for weaknesses in a game, you're not going to have as much fun than if you sit down, relax, and enjoy yourself...

That's a very good point. In fact, I have stopped going to most fan sites just for that reason. In the case of Black and White, for example, I know for a fact I could log in and start finding every minute problem, cheat and strategy ever devise. I'd pretty much know the whole game inside and out before ever playing. So I am waiting for one more patch and will discover it all on my own.

However, "looking" for a weakness vs. having the weakness slap you in the face is quite another story. In the case of Civ players, most of us are analytical people. You kind of have to be to enjoy trying to maximize production outputs, etc. This necessarily leads at some point to people noticing even small things: "Hey, the production bonus isn't calculating correctly."

But what I'm talking about are MAJOR things, like crashes, corrupted saved games, missing/broken features, utterly empty AI, errant graphics (like the sea bases in SMAC). And frankly, unless there is some secret undergroung beta that has been going on a good long while here, an October release means one thing: MASSIVE Civ3 failure. Period. Now, push that back to May and things are looking much better.

	24-07-2001 06:03									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: How about end of June and July go to Beta testing? Whens the last time we've seen an update, news snipit, etc straight from the horses mouth? When was that slide show of screenshots explaining Resources put up? Wasn't it like early June or even end of May? From then to July... What have they been doing? I'm sure its not re-inventing the wheel. They already have new additions to the game added... the only thing left logicaly is minor things. Like graphics, bug hunting, and beta testing.

The slide show of the resources was put up May 11. From then to July I know one thing that they haven't been doing, giving us information about Civ3.

We could really determine how good the game will be if we knew when these screenshots were taken. If June then we are in trouble but if it was about January we still might get a good game.

I think tniem said in a seperate thread that the ad about the October release could have been issused to the magazine before they changed the date at the infogamers site. So we never know. Either way I think Civ3 should be a good game but I still don't like the manner in how Firaxis treated the public while creating the game.

	24-07-2001 09:08									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by MarkG have they mentioned the number 12 as a fact?

I petty sure way back when they said 12 at that time, however we all know that Activision was going to release more scenarios then cancel them.

	24-07-2001 09:29									#20
	Markos is right! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yin you're a silly goose.

Changing graphics in Civ doesn't affect the game at all. How else could scenarios and modpacks work in Civ 2?

	24-07-2001 09:37									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Actually, that's my point as well. The gameplay STAYS THE SAME. Thus, if I'm going to pay $50 for basically the same gameplay, I damn well at least better have something pretty(er) to stare at.

EDIT: ...I get your point now...

What I am referring to is in SMAC they missed some art. I believe it was when a land city gets "sunk" or whatever it never changes to a water city...or something. I've tried to block the whole SMAC experience from my mind, but Firaxis admitted the mistake. Can't remember if it was ever fixed, though.

	24-07-2001 09:48									#22
	Tired of ads?

Com'on, you know there's at least something new in Civ 3.

What I was really getting at was Firaxis could have the artists work indepdently of the programmers. The program can be beta tested while the graphics are refined and improved. These new graphics can be put on top of the beta program like a new skin, using one of the "cyberspace" buzzwords.

	24-07-2001 09:52									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Ah, I see now what you mean. Of course, what you are saying works in theory. In fact, when all these "safe" art changes are made moments before the CD is mastered, we all know the kind of hell that can ensue. And it's not just last minute art. Last minute ANYTHING can have horrible effects. For one example, the Age of Kings people (and I have great respect for ES) made a last minute AI change for the easy setting on the game. Well, guess what? Turns out that "safe and tiny" change actually made the computer resign automatically a few minutes into the game.

Mind you, it's not like having an unplayable easy setting was the end of the world or anything (heck, I never even played it), but the lesson was clear enough: Last minute changes can kill things in a game in most unexpected ways.

	24-07-2001 10:10									#24
	Suffering from ads?

Clearly Murphy's Law was at work

I tend to believe the Firaxis people have the separation of code and graphics down to an art form, though, being the heir to Civ 2, master of scenarios and modpacks.

Right now we have a whole bunch of young whippersnapper companies that do these "skin" changes all the time, e.g. Winamp. Also you can get a lot of themes and skins for Windows, and Stardock is going a long way with Desktop X.

So you see, it's quite a safe operation. Won't hurt a bit

	24-07-2001 10:12									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

LOL! O.K. O.K. I give.

	24-07-2001 11:00									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Seeing as noones said "But gameplay is infinately more important than graphics and I don't care if we have civ1 graphics"........actually, I won't say that, because at the end of the day, the graphics are actually important. Admitedly, not as important as gameplay, but.....from what we've seen, and in one review I'd read that the artists at Firaxis had devloped something like 12 000 differnt tiles during the last 2 years of production....I'm very upset that they haven't come up with better than what we've seen already.

	24-07-2001 12:53									#27
	Put an end to popups!

but it cannot be, simply cannot be....
there is so much money at stake that i simply cannot imagine them hiring daltonists to produce idiotic maps like we have been shown before. it has to be jpg deterioration or something. note that civ3 resources tutorial and shakycam footage show a different pallete of the game and much nicer graphics. it really cannot be.....
someone here posted an article about producing a game. you do the maths and see if you would like to screw up investment that big because of a road going over the mountain top. i say - no way....
still, the way firaxis handles the webpage issue is really chilling. if it were not for occassional sightings at apolyton, i'd guess they had been closed down.

	24-07-2001 12:59									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: but it cannot be, simply cannot be.... there is so much money at stake that i simply cannot imagine them hiring daltonists to produce idiotic maps like we have been shown before. it has to be jpg deterioration or something. note that civ3 resources tutorial and shakycam footage show a different pallete of the game and much nicer graphics. it really cannot be.....

You make a good point there. The resource tutorial's graphics look pretty good actually. That's why I think a lot of these screenshots we're seeing could be from a long time ago. Possibly as long ago as January. Maybe I'm dreaming or maybe I have too many maybies. Well, with what little info. we know that's all we can have, maybies.