08-09-2000 01:16									#1
	Silverdragon's guide to conservative expansionism Full PM-box? Change here!

Here is...
Silverdragon's guide to conservative expansionism!!
[applause]
There are 4 different--Stop clapping you damn fools!
[/applause]
As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted, There are 4 different types of play used by most civers. All are good ways, but usually you will find one that you particularly like. On the extreme perfectionist end, there is OCC, or one city challenge, playing with only one city. Sometimes this style will be modified so the SSC has helper cities that build caravans for its wonders and support its settlers. Then on the other extreme is ICS, or infinite city strategy, where the player builds as many cities as possible. Then there is perfectionism, with 8-12 cities. But my style is conservative expansionism. With this strategy, your empire will end up around 20-25 cities.

I. General Strategy
Have your first settler build a city pretty near to your beginning starting place. Have your 2nd settler go on a hut popping mission. If you get mercanaries, go for more huts. Otherwise, start your first city on a warrior and have it go exploring. Have the second warrior defend. Then start on settlers. Have the NON settler build a second city. I know a lot of people do not like building cities with their NON settlers, so if you really don't want to, fine. Have it build roads on grassland (shield) squares, or if you are lucky enough to get plains w/ a special, irrigate it and build roads on it. As you get settlers, have them build one improvement in their home city's radius, and build a new city with them. Each new city should build a defender and about half of them should build an exploration unit after that. Once they are done with those tasks, set them on settlers. Once you have 3 or so cities, start the one with the greatest potential trade output on the colossus and another, most likely your capital on the hanging gardens. Once at six cities, start another city on the great wall and another on the oracle. After a city builds a wonder, set it on improvements. At this point, have cities build a temple before starting on a wonder. At ten cities, have each settler build two improvements before building a city. At 14, have each settler build 4 improvements or so, and at 20, stop building settlers in almost every city. Just have expansion go slowly, and really improve your cities' terrain.
II. Wonders
As you get the techs for them, make sure you get these wonders:

• colossus
  
• oracle
  
• hanging gardens
  
• great library
  
• great wall
  
• sun tzu's war academy
  
• michaelangelo's chapel
  
• copernicus' observatory (in same city as colossus)
  
• j.s. bach's cathedral
  
• isaac newton's college (same city as copernicus)
  
• leonardo's workshop
  
• magellans
  

after this you will be in full control of the game, and get almost every wonder (except do not build Eiffel Tower, and only build the Manhatten project if all your cities have sdi.
III. Research
Goals:
Bronze
Monarchy
Pottery
Masonry
Literacy
Currency
Republic
Philosophy
Invention
Trade
Feudalism
Theology
Monotheism
Gunpowder
Banking
University
Astronomy
Theory of Gravity
Then surge through the tech tree.

IV. Governments
Monarchy upon getting the tech
Republic upon getting J.S. Bach's
Democracy upon getting the tech
Communism as soon as available

I haven't played this strategy for a while, so i'm open to any changes you want. (I probably made some errors somewhere.)

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited September 08, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited September 11, 2000).]

	08-09-2000 04:49									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sounds good to me - never played this style so cannot comment in detail.
Can you really get those first 5 or 6 Wonders with any regularity?? I'm generally overjoyed to get two or three of them (in ICS)
Good civin'

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"

	08-09-2000 12:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

SG1,

Getting the first 5-6 and Mike's isn't all that hard if you are willing to plan for them upto and including selling cheap improvements if you are short on cash to buy them.

I usually start building the first wonder or two with disbanded warriors from cities connected to the wonder city by roads. Also, if you put science at 60 and put your first citizen to work on a trade square, even if it is just bare ocean, you usually can get your first tech at turn 6 or 7 and if your second city is built by then your 2nd tech at turn 14 or 15. Otherwise the second tech comes in about turn 20.

I usually grab Pottery first and then bronze. Pottery is almost always in your first list of choices and won't come up again for 3 or 4 techs. This tip came from the Civ II Avanced Guide and seems to be true once I started paying attention to when I could get it.

The wonders that I find hard to get are Copericus and Newton's. I don't try for the Pyramids, Eiffel, or Womens Sufferage. I also very seldom use Republic or Demo.

I've only won one game so far but unless the barbarians get me very early in the game I don't get wiped out like I used to.

Ken

	08-09-2000 12:58									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I guess it depends on which level you play.I like the strategy for any level but it is hard to get those first 5 wonders while expanding,building some kind of army and tryin to maintain order.It can be done though.Getting The Collosus,Gardens and Great Wall is pretty tough for me.Admittedly.I don't go after The Wall with great zeal.

Nice to see someone building The Oracle without rules.txt modifications.

	08-09-2000 19:41									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I realised that my hands were sore, but I've only just realised it was all that clapping!


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited September 08, 2000).]

	09-09-2000 02:42									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There, I changed the applause.
[applause to silverdragon for turning applause off]
For me, getting the first few wonders are easy. Except.. the pyramids. The AI has finished them by 3000 BC in some of my games, which I don't think is technically possible. Then the ai won't build any more wonders except the lighthouse, and Magellans. About the Oracle, I love it, for this strategy, and this strategy only. Because, in this strategy, you end up with a lot of big cities, that usually have temples.

	09-09-2000 17:57									#8
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How do you manage to get all these wonders so early?? You gotta be really lucky to get cities from huts or something, otherwise either your expansion will be delayed by the cities building wonders/caravans, or your wonderbuilding will start to late because of the settlers/defenders you have to build (I usually build: warrior,settler for expansion, setller for building improvements, defender, defender, wonder / caravan)before starting building wonders. In my opinion you need the second settler for roads to get enough trade, he´s not necessary for cities with many river squares.

Anyway, from my expiriences playing expansionist / extreme expansionist, when the AI civs get good starting postions, expand fast and have standart production in their cities, I´m not able to build more than two (with a good starting position myself: three) of the early wonders like the colossus, the pyramids, the oracle or the hanging gardens.

It´s also a question of research. The first things I research are the techs for monarchy, bronze, writing/currency (then go off for philosophy and for the improvements needed for the happiness / science WoWs). By then, the AI has sometimes already has the techs for the other valuable wonders and starts building them.

	10-09-2000 09:19									#9
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Hmmm, I'm a little doubtful too.. I don't doubt that you can build all of those wonders, but I do doubt it will really do you much good, since your initial expansion is very slow in order to do it. You would effectively have to run an OCC-feeder scheme, which would work best with fewercities. Perhaps it's because most of my Civ games have been MP, so I've learned to get along without wonders too much?

I'm still getting back into Civ, so perhaps I'm completely off the mark. I think Xin Yu believes in building wonders like mad, and he is supposedly an excellent player.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited September 09, 2000).]

	10-09-2000 09:58									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you play on large worlds very likely you will share a continent with at most one or two other civilizations. In this situation it is very hard to build five of the seven early wonders. At least at the Deity level.

I would go to Republic after building Michelangelo. If Bach is a priority why waste 300 shields on the Oracle? It will be obsolete in no time. Unless you think you are playing on a one continent world, Marco Polo is a far better alternative for 100 fewer shields. If you have Marco Polo and let some AI civilization build the Great Library you can generally trade with that civilization for any technologies you need. This way there will only be one civilization that is technologically close to the human player.

	09-09-2000 23:32									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

I get Oracle for the doubled temples, because I build a lot of them early. I also get it because I end up with one monstrous production city, because I am very good at finding coal resources, or making them. The result is: This baby has built every wonder that is useful, and it needs something to do. I also have a computer that likes giving me militarist/expansionists that only bother with the Lighthouse. What dumbasses. But I always build every attitude wonder, because [brag mode]I'm the only person here who has never seen a double unhappy person,[/brag mode] and I want it to stay that way.

	09-09-2000 23:43									#13
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SilverDragon:

If the AI civilizations in your games are only interested in the Lighthouse, then you are playing a game with which I am not familiar.

	11-09-2000 18:25									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

In my experience one of the perfectionist AIs (Aztecs most usually) start Copernicus pretty quickly, so you need to get Astronomy very early.

One small error, you missed currency on your tech tree.

I think you need a lot of pheasants (and peasants) to build all those wonders so quickly!!

	11-09-2000 20:53									#16
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SilverDragon, when you play do you generally play with random opponents or do you choose who your opponents will be? Also on what kind of world do you play? Is it generally one continent or multicontinent?

In one of your messages you write:

quote: I get Oracle for the doubled temples, because I build a lot of them early. I also get it because I end up with one monstrous production city, because I am very good at finding coal resources, or making them. The result is: This baby has built every wonder that is useful, and it needs something to do.

	12-09-2000 13:37									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

My threeh'p'orth on Wonders (based on an ICSish style)

1. Colossus - 'cos if you don't build it first the AI surely will
2. Gardens - normally a damn close run thing
3. look at world and decide whether you need a navy - Lighthouse or are their unfriendly neighbours? - Wall

if I now have three Wonders, relax - I have won - the rest is purely cosmetic. OK - I've almost certainly won anyway, but there is a lot more work to do if I haven't got my WoWs.

	14-09-2000 03:33									#18
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I only make coal resources after engineers.

	21-09-2000 04:14									#19
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TIP FOR EXPANSIONISTS (AI ONLY) : never hoard loads of money : invest, make the cash usefull. In AI games bribery by the AI is not really an issue, so if your not saving to bribe the enemy, rush build all the time.

	26-10-2000 05:01									#20
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Rushbuying has relevance to other styles of play as well eg OCC where I've termed it the 0CC ["0 (zero) Cash-in-the-Coffers"] Rule.

	27-10-2000 02:36									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Silverdragon--> U dont have a clue bout what ure talking about (=
Sorry....

	27-10-2000 17:47									#22
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Latterly I have been playing on a small map. I seem to be able to get most (even all) of the early wonders after anything except a very poor start. On a large map, two is more likely even after a good start.

I think the explanation may be that the terrain on a small map is more challenging so that the AI's inability sensibly to site cities hampers it plus the AIs fight among themselves earlier and have more trouble from barbs.

I always have random AI civs and their preferences for the early wonders match my own, Pyramids, then Colossus then HG. They only go for Lighthouse and Oracle if nothing else is available.

I'm going to have to work out a self denying ordinance so as to stop getting too many wonders early on a small map as it takes all the challenge out of the game.

	30-10-2000 01:02									#23
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To answer some of your questions, I like small one continent maps. That means the zulus and mongols kill all the perfectionist civs that like wonders before they start too many wonders. If an AI starts the Oracle, I let them have it and then bribe the city. Also, I get the wonders by incrementally rushbuying caravans. Once somebody (I think it was Smash) got the first four OCC wonders by 75 bc by incrementally rushbuying caravans. They only cost 150 gold, and you can easily get that in a turn in tribute, getting you an early wonder every 4 or 6 turns, depending on what it is. Now if you're playing MGE, I suggest you drop the Oracle, because you won't get as much tribute from the AI, plus you will have more early wars. Then I suggest getting to polytheism faster for vet ellies. Or, you could just use ICS.