23-07-2001 12:10									#1
	Plate Tectonics: Natrual Wonders Of The World Full PM-box? Change here!

It's quite likely that over 6000 years terrain should change, hills should turn into mountins ect. What about natrual wonders of the world? I have already heard that The Great Wall & Great Canal will be placed as objects on the map, but what about stuff like Victoria Falls? there should be 15 Natrual wonders, for every game you play, 5-6 of them could be placed into the terain and treated accordingly. Any thoughts?

	23-07-2001 12:16									#2
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i think firaxis is going to have a hard enough time having the random map generator come up with a decent map without having to worry about placing natural wonders like victoria falls. lets face it, the random maps in civ2 were terrible.

alex: shouldn't it be mountains turning into hills? and where did you hear abou the canal and the great wall being placed on the map?

	23-07-2001 12:29									#3
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Well, maybee in Civ 4... . No hills into mountains is possible.

Civ Fanatics claims there will be a great wall that will apear on the map.

	23-07-2001 15:36									#4
	6000 years!?!?!?! Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Whoa!! Slow down a bit. Let me assure you that 6000 years is in no way enough time to turn mountains into hills.

The Catskill Mts are a good example. Are these "mountains" or "hills"? The Taconic Orogeny which resulted in the Catskills happened about 500 million years ago during the Ordovician Period (when fish were the dominant life form on Earth). They've been eroding ever since but they're still fairly impressive.

Only the movement of glacier sheets down from the poles can have such an effect on mountains in a relatively short timespan. But I won't get into that discussion.

The rivers on the map are usually placed without respect to reality. Water flows downhill through gravitational forces and thus rivers are made. Accordingly, the source of rivers is by default high ground (hills and mountains). How often can you find rivers starting in the middle of a plain on a Civ map? Way too often.

The ultimate hindrance in creating a good map is the fact that the earth is spherical and can't be accurately represented on a flat screen. Ask Mercator, his name says it all.

	23-07-2001 16:12									#5
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We have chatted about this before, with inconclusive results. On big maps I think it would be a nice touch if there were tiles of local natural interest, particularly if the first nation to discover them got to give them a name. Conquest of the New World did this quite nicely. Ultimately it is crowd pleasing eye-candy which would only work if the game was fun and the random map generator could cope with placing them sensibly. I'd like to see them in the game, being a big fan of the palace, town view and other such ephemera that add atmosphere to the strategy.

The only terrain changes I can think of that would make a big difference to Civ gameplay are those centered around natural disasters. A volcano could suddenly erupt. An earthquake could make southern California disappear into the sea. Other than that, the changes are largely man wrought, like the deforestation of large parts of the globe. Civ would need a complicated new bio model to start causing local erosion from excessive deforestation, acid rain or overgrazing by goats. Most natural changes, like whether a range of mountains is two feet lower after a thousand years of the game, really don't matter. Even rivers changing their course are unlikely to actually move it so far it changes by a whole tile.

	23-07-2001 17:06									#6
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Given what they did in SMAC (Geothermal Shallows, Monsoon Jungle, etc kinda features) there is no reason not to do kinda same thing in Civ 3. Its really a nice touch.

	23-07-2001 17:22									#7
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Large geological changes such as plate tectonics do not take place over a period like that of the existence of civilisation, they take far longer. It may be fair to encorporate glacial changes, although over this period of time they would be slight.

Nah, a pointless idea...

	23-07-2001 17:24									#8
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Yes, an absolutely brilliant idea with almost infinite possibilities.

Of course, Ayer's Rock (named "Recurve Rock" after its discoverer) would generate serious dosh for the neighbouring city on the advent of mass tourism. I would be extremely pleased if a settler bumped into it.

Coastal erosion could be a feature, but depending on the geography you should be able to construct defences (expensive, but better than losing a city). The changing sea levels in SMAC pissed me of no end (so did the disappearing roads). I could live with natural disasters if they were extremely rare (in Britain, the largest earthquakes we encounter wouldn't knock a paper cup off a table).

Storms and cyclones at sea would be a nice feature, reducing MPs (even damaging vessels). A "Weather Satellite" improvement could help you detect trouble.

	23-07-2001 17:30									#9
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I agree about the "random events" and that they could add to the game but they would have to be soundly designed. I don't expect a "mountain" to explode with lava if it's located in Scandanavia (for example). The random map generator would have to be seriously overhauled to take into account plate tectonics (the driving force behind both earthquakes and volcanos, as well as geothermal springs and myriad other effects).

Otherwise, scenarios can deal with these occurances rather effectively.

	23-07-2001 19:04									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think there should be erosion and stuff, because it moves way too slow...however, I think that earthquakes should have a less predictable effect on the terrain...

	24-07-2001 05:46									#11
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Incorporating a plate tectonics model before they start beta testing, or else before release? I sincerely doubt it.

Neat idea though

	24-07-2001 12:23									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Large geological changes such as plate tectonics do not take place over a period like that of the existence of civilisation, they take far longer. It may be fair to encorporate glacial changes, although over this period of time they would be slight. Nah, a pointless idea...

It's possible for terrain to change over 6000 years, i mean only a few tiles should change in an entire game, it would make it more fun.

	24-07-2001 13:12									#13
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quote: canal and the great wall being placed on the map?

I also saw it in a preview back in April. I as well do believe that they will be placed on the map, even though (I don't think) Firaxis has stated that it's official. I would still expect this feature to be in Civ3.

	24-07-2001 14:30									#14
	Only one canal??? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I can think of two "great canals" - Suez and Panama - and hundreds of "near great canals". Why should this be a Wonder???

Is a canal going to be something that an engineer can create??? That, I think, would be a great idea. Sort of like allowing them to produce river hexes (but I guess this would be abused in order to rack in the trades).

And triremes (maybe caravels) should be able to move along river squares, as long as they are not located in a mountain or hill square. Wouldn't this be a relatively easy change?

Remember that the Vikings held the city of Paris (about 180 km from the ocean) ransom by rowing/sailing up the Seine.

	24-07-2001 18:44									#15
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I like the idea about natural wonders like Victoria Falls. Such wonders could give extra income, and make you get a higher regard from the other nations

But the idea about making the terrain change over 6000 years is not a good idea I think.

	24-07-2001 19:16									#16
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If items like the Victoria Falls did generate extra income, it most likely would be commerce. Then again, maybe you meant that...

	24-07-2001 19:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by death_head If items like the Victoria Falls did generate extra income, it most likely would be commerce. Then again, maybe you meant that...

Yeah, that was what I ment

	24-07-2001 19:30									#18
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Ok, just making sure we're on the same page.

*kicks monkey at typewriter*

Thanks for making me look stupid!

	25-07-2001 17:35									#19
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Natural Wonders (If done properly)

Erosion, etc. (Time span is too short)

Triremes, etc. on rivers would be nice, but as we know, rivers are actually BETWEEN tiles, so it may not work.

*makes a quick phone call to report death_head for animal abuse*

death_head: :banned:

	25-07-2001 18:50									#20
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Rivers are between tiles? How did I miss that?

	25-07-2001 19:03									#21
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how does trade arrows work for rivers betwween tiles ??? i guess defence bonus only comes from attacks across the river it self ... bit like the old board games

	29-07-2001 02:52									#22
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Actually, if I remember correctly (it has been years afterall), Civ1 had some natural disasters. Earthquakes would randomly destroy buildings, floods would kill people, etc. They weren't that major in the grand scheme of things, but they did add a slight sense of Mother Nature's superiority over you. And it probably wouldn't be that hard to program in either, although I'm sure that there are going to be players who would complain about its implementation.

	29-07-2001 03:44									#23
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Ya, if they could do it back then(when was that?), then they could easily do it now. The natural wonders would be cool, if done correctly

	07-08-2001 00:18									#24
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Natural Wonders are a great idea, so long as they only confer a small advantage, and don't unbalance the gameplay.

How about this idea? Once some cities are wiped out in the early game, they leave behind a ruin square which can become a source of income for later cities built in that area. Real life examples are pompeii and those inca hill cites. The ruin could be pillaged like any other improvement.

	07-08-2001 05:40									#25
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well there have been sea volcanic action thats created islands within 1000 years at most..

but what would be more apparent over 10000 years would be the different extinctions of animals and affects of nature humans would have.

	07-08-2001 12:24									#26
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Natural disasters in civ 1 were a bit pants if I remember correctly, it was just a matter of a random city had a random event _unless_ the preventing city improvement had been built there. There was no relationship to surrounding terrain or anything else.

	07-08-2001 14:09									#27
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Well there is no way to have animals become exinct since they aren't part of the game. However, 10 000 years ago, Scandanavia, northern Russia, Canada and northern USA were covered with ice sheets more than 1km thick!!!

It would be very easy for a random selection at the start of a game to determine if the land is in the start, middle or end of an ice age. That way, there could be "random" events every 2000 years or so which cause the tiles along the borders to shift in one direction or the other.

Not that I'm actually suggesting this. This should be left to the realm of scenarios.

	07-08-2001 17:50									#28
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Yeah really cool effects,terrain changing and stuff,especially when you just finished reirrigating your cityradius after a barbattack and then you see glaciers take over your nicely terraformed grassland become useless and your population starts dying.


Why does everyone want to use platetectonics?THere are other ways to create decent maps.
All natural events that don't take to long(in time)(eg vulcanic activity,floods,storms,...) are to short for gameplay turns,they should best be made events.



Shade

	07-08-2001 18:25									#29
	Re: Only one canal??? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by fittstim I can think of two "great canals" - Suez and Panama - and hundreds of "near great canals". Why should this be a Wonder???

The Grand Canal is located in China and is a tiny bit more impressive than Suez and Panama combined. It basically connects all the rivers in a very large area.

quote: Is a canal going to be something that an engineer can create??? That, I think, would be a great idea. Sort of like allowing them to produce river hexes (but I guess this would be abused in order to rack in the trades).

I hope so! Surely this is an important advance in human history. It should be a slow process though, lots of turns per square. Faster if you built the wonder.

	07-08-2001 21:31									#30
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I've always wanted to be able to name features of the world (as in Conquest of the New World) like continents, rivers, oceans, mountain ranges etc.

I realize that the game screen would get a little crowded, but it would be nice especially if you could toggle the labels on and off.

I don't really think that natural wonders should provide civs with any additional bonuses (since they have nothing to do with the decisions that you make as a civ's leader), but having bonuses would accurately reflect the "real world", where tourists pay millions of dollars to see the Ngorogoro Crater, Angel Falls, Everest, etc.

However, I think additional points to the discoverer might be appropriate since discovering the wonder does reflect the civ's propensity towards exploration.