24-07-2001 12:00									#1
	A glimmer of Optomism Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Unlike Yin,I am totally convinced when this game is released,it will be good and will be nothing like they've shown us.The screenshots were looking at are at least 6 months old,you think they're releaseing just off the press shots?Naww,this stuffs OLD.For some reason Firaxis thinks its cool to just try and create a "enigma" effect.By holding back info and good screenshots till the very last moment before sale.Obviously it already has created quite the commotion even if it "seems" negative.

Also,whos to say Firaxis isn't blatantly lyeing to us?They chould be done with beta testing,but only saying otherwise.We can't say whats going on behind closed doors.I'll trash and boo civ 3 after it comes out,not before.Ya know "don't count your chickens before they've hatched."

	24-07-2001 12:19									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Firaxis are confussing me. . However as long as Sid is part of the Civ 3 team, i trust he wont let the game stuff up.

	24-07-2001 13:30									#3
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quote: The screenshots were looking at are at least 6 months old,you think they're releaseing just off the press shots?Naww,this stuffs OLD

You are saying something that I have been stating here for the past couple of days. That these screenshots might have been taken as long ago as January.

I to believe the game will be good but for now there is not a reason why we shouldn't critize the game to get our point through. I'm going to critize the game until the day I play it, so I can get what I want. When I then play Civ3, I will be in ahhh with the game, I will then stop critizing the game. Most likely I won't find anything about the game that I don't like that is a big issue. I have found a couple of things about Civ2 that I don't like but those are just the little things. If we continue to critize the game until it's release hopefully even the little problems will be left out (I know there won't be any big problems, I too have faith in Sid). It's just a matter for me if the little annoying things like having a crappy go to command will be fixed. The game can be great with small problems (i.e. Civ2) but the game can't be perfect with small problems.

	24-07-2001 13:38									#4
	Marketing strategy? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Firaxis' "strategy" of creating an enigma around civ3 is going to bite them in rear. if potential buyers see civ3 on the shelves and wonder if the games any good, they're going to pick up a gaming magazine to look at the graphics and stuff. and all the pictures in the mags are going to be your 6 month old beta pictures. this means that the customer is going to be turned off by the game and WILL NOT buy it. Fans of the civ series will buy the game anyways, but their aren't enough of us to make the game profitable and then its goodbye Firaxis.

	24-07-2001 13:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

er... I don't think the screenshots are six months old, and in any case I don't think that they have completley overhauled the graphics engine in that time without even mentioning it (they like to advertise that kind of thing to justify why it's taking so long for release, even though generally more delays=worse product.

Anyway, who cares about the stinking graphics? I'd happily shell out $50 for this thing if they took Civ2, added some Civs and more customizeability, and seriously improved the AI, and left the rest untouched.

	24-07-2001 13:53									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I doubt that, H Tower. I mean how old of a mag. are these buyers going to look at? Not to mention that the game box would show differently from an old mag., the screenshots that will be on the back of the box.

quote: Fans of the civ series will buy the game anyways, but their aren't enough of us to make the game profitable and then its goodbye Firaxis.

I don't think that it wouldn't lead to any profit. In fact still probably quite a fairly large profit. I would think that only about 15% of the buyers for Civ3 will be new to the series, if even that much.

	24-07-2001 15:36									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you think about it, almost everybody here expects a flawless close to perfection game. Civ 3 wont be judged with normal credentials, we all loved civ 2, and many of us thought of it as the perfect game. Perfecting the perfect, now how easy is that?

	24-07-2001 16:11									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Wille Perfecting the perfect, now how easy is that?

Well, it is Firaxis themselves who has made us expecting the perfect civ game by stating "This will be the best civ experience ever."

	24-07-2001 16:13									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by campmajor! Well, it is Firaxis themselves who has made us expecting the perfect civ game by stating "This will be the best civ experience ever."

Yes but what are they supposed to say? " This might not be the best civ experience ever, but we'll do our best"

	24-07-2001 18:41									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 Firaxis are confussing me. . However as long as Sid is part of the Civ 3 team, i trust he wont let the game stuff up.

Good since Sid is not a part of the Civ III team nor was he really a part of the Civ II team. Just some primiliminary strokes for where the game was going to go in a general direction and then he went off to do Dinos and then Sim Golf. Meanwhile, Brian Renyolds built Civ II while in England or something but he has since left Firaxis after making SMAC.

	25-07-2001 11:40									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thats not very encouraging.

	25-07-2001 12:38									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Anyway, who cares about the stinking graphics? I'd happily shell out $50 for this thing if they took Civ2, added some Civs and more customizeability, and seriously improved the AI, and left the rest untouched.

I would too but the graphics on Civ3 are much less clear than the ones on Civ2. This really disimproves the game a lot. Having this lack of clearity on the graphics will really hamper the experience of playing Civ3.

quote: Good since Sid is not a part of the Civ III team nor was he really a part of the Civ II team. Just some primiliminary strokes for where the game was going to go in a general direction

I think he is a little more involved in the game than you happen to think so. It seems to me that he is the leader of the civ team. While he may not be the one actually creating the game, I think he is the one over seeing most of the creation. I know Jeff Briggs is the President but I think Sid is the main influence on the game.

	25-07-2001 12:55									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by TechWins I think he is a little more involved in the game than you happen to think so. It seems to me that he is the leader of the civ team. While he may not be the one actually creating the game, I think he is the one over seeing most of the creation. I know Jeff Briggs is the President but I think Sid is the main influence on the game.

I really don't think he is. Nor do I think it really matters all that much.

Open up your Civ II manual and read the letter from Sid at the end of it. He talks about after he, Brian Renyolds, and another guy (I want to say Jeff but can't remember) talked about what they would like to put into a Civ II, BR went to England and wrote the code for the game. That was the basis for it, not anything that Sid wrote, or even something written with Sid watching. BR did it on his own for the most part with basic code and then a team put it all together and made it the Civ 2 we all know.

Now, why do I think Sid is not that involved in Civ III? For many of the same reasons.

He does not like making sequels. I think he said that he did not want to spend the rest of his career trying to outdo the last release in a series. Doing such a thing would drive him 'crazy.' So he doesn't make them, he has others do it for him. He has a team to make this game.

Do you have any reason to believe that Sid is doing a good portion of this game? If so, from where? Because I have seen nothing to make me think that Sid is actually a major part of this project.

On top of all of this that I have already said, Firaxis is working on two games. One is of course Civ III, the other Sid Meier's Sim Golf. It has been indicated that Sid has been working on the code for this game. He dreamed it up (or read yin's post, whatever you want to believe) and then began working on it. All the more reason to believe that Sid has little to do with Civ III.

Does this make me worry? Not really. BR did Civ II and it turned out great. Hopefully this team of talented individuals can do the same for Civ III.

	25-07-2001 13:13									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

tniem,

I don't really think he has much to do with the coding but I still believe (no proof, just like you) he does oversee the whole thing. I do doubt that he does put much work into Civ3 but since his name will be on the box I don't think he's going to let an unsuccesfull game be created. I think I may have misinterpreted your first post because as I read your last post and then reread your first post I see your first post differently. So I'm sorry for that. You're right but I do think Sid has/had a big influence on the game. Most likely had because his new project should be consuming most of his attention.

	25-07-2001 15:50									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I expect he has the same sort of editorial oversight any manager would have. Whether he invented the original culture concept or pencilled down the original mechanics about how resources work is not important. What counts is if at significant milestones Sid gets to examine the work in progress and say 'keep that, change this, take out X because it is not working'. Provided he, or someone else with equivlent expertise, does enough of that then we are likely to get a workable result.

My scepticism revolves around how much new stuff we will actually see in the final product. The attempt to supply extra features was not very ambitious and started from a viewpoint of Civ II which had already been surpassed in many ways by later products. If any of the new features prove unworkable or get reduced to mere window dressing then we are in danger of having Firaxis accused of just putting a pretty face on Civ II and expecting people to pay full price. If the media take that attitude then it is unlikely that the game will fulfil its sales potential and the chance of a real advance on the Civ genre will be damaged (with Activision retired from the area if Firaxis flop then no-one else will be tempted). If it does really well then the chances of a financial backer for the alternate civ projects or entirely new development grows considerably. You only have to look at the FPS and RTS genres for proof. Even the RPG genre was revitalised just by two hit games.

	25-07-2001 20:10									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold My scepticism revolves around how much new stuff we will actually see in the final product. The attempt to supply extra features was not very ambitious and started from a viewpoint of Civ II which had already been surpassed in many ways by later products.

Although I am optimistic about Civ3, this has been a nagging concern of mine as well. I understand that in doing the sequal, the developement team had to pay proper hommage to Civ2, but it seemed most the initial press focused on the fact that they wanted to improve on Civ2, not that Firaxis wanted to make a new title in the series... like they wanted not to offend the Civ2 players

Maybe all the pessimism is getting to me, I just had to agree. Still thinking positive, tho!