24-07-2001 23:30									#1
	Countdown to D5 Support Apolyton

This thread is to record the final progress toward the release of Demo 5, and any issues relevant to that.

I feel that D5 should be at least to the standard of D4. To achieve this the following things need to be done:

1. Test the terrain modification, and link the terrain to images.

2. Finish and test the unit movement system (Laurent and I are both working on parts of that).

3. Make sure the combat system works.

4. Add a few more minor orders to the unit orders submenu (cancel orders for example).

5. Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

6. Build a model for an actual player (at present there are civilizations, but no players).

7. Provide some sort of AI (probably a port of the D4 version) for non-player civilizations.

8. Make sure that there is adequate feedback to the player on events during a move.

9. All the things I have forgotten.

This list looks significant, but if I listed all the things that have been done it would look small.

As things are got working, I will check them off this list.

I hope that 1 and 2 can be fixed in this coming week. I am thinking about 7.

Cheers

	25-07-2001 06:44									#2
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Woohoo! Looking forward to seeing it, guys. Y'all have been too long without a new demo.

Let me know how #7 goes. I'm dealing with combat AI right now for our game, and it's a total nightmare! . We're using a multi-tiered AI, which passes general orders down, and they get more specific at each level (from the top level, which is basically "Attack" or "Run Away" all the way down to the bottom level, which is "Advance unit to x,y" or "Shoot at enemy unit z"). We're using neural nets to do the actual decision making at each level. I'm using a lot of fuzzy inputs to provide some sense of randomness (but then you have to add in a momentum factor to prevent oscillations, arrrrgg!).

At least the combat AI has some partial player control. Let me tell you, I'm not looking forward to trying to program the computer player AI, heh.

What sort of system are you using? I'd be really interested to know how you guys are handling AI.

Ron

	29-07-2001 05:40									#3
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Gary:

Thanks for the synopsis!

I'd rather not wait for AI. A direct port of the d4 stuff would require Significant effort since the whole program structure has changed. And its something I did as a kludge anyway, and most of it will not contribute to the final version. So I would prefer to have a Very simple quasi-AI (random teleporting barbarian attacks or something) for d5 and that's it. We can discuss more when I return for vacation if you like.

Ron:

For what the plans are for AI look on the web page under "AI" and also under "Map AI"

	29-07-2001 08:35									#4
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The present state:

1. DONE. Test the terrain modification, and link the terrain to images.

2. Finish and test the unit movement system (Laurent and I are both working on parts of that).

3. Make sure the combat system works.

4. Add a few more minor orders to the unit orders submenu (cancel orders for example).

5. Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

6. Build a model for an actual player (at present there are civilizations, but no players).

7. REDUCED TO A RUDIMENTARY FORM, see Marks post. Provide some sort of AI (probably a port of the D4 version) for non-player civilizations.

8. Make sure that there is adequate feedback to the player on events during a move.

9. All the things I have forgotten.

Cheers

	07-08-2001 02:27									#5
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This is a thinly disguised bump.

The movement system is getting very near finished. As can be seen in the military movement thread I have a couple of small problems, not so much with movement, as with displaying it in the GUI.

Cheers.

	12-08-2001 04:40									#6
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There have been complications. There are now six different input states for the system.

For the map:

1. The "normal" mode. We are not doing anything special yet.

2. The "move" mode. We have clicked the move button and want to use the mouse for optimized move tracking.

3. The arrows mode. We have pressed one arrow key, and subsequent arrow keys must be added to that one (rather than replacing it).

For task forces:

4. The popup menu task force mangement mode.

5. The keboard oriented task force management mode.

6. The one button mouse click task force management mode.

Modes 1, 2 and 3 can switch around in a very confusing manner (for example, what happens if someone is using the mouse to check out paths, then presses an arrow key? or if someone wants to cancel a series of arrow keys, what do they do?).

This was getting a bit hard to handle so I have been writing an input mode system. Should be done soon. I am currently out of work which means I can spend a lot of time on Clash.

Cheers

	22-08-2001 08:52									#7
	Support Apolyton

The present state:

1. DONE. Test the terrain modification, and link the terrain to images.

2. DONE. Finish and test the unit movement system.

3. Make sure the combat system works.

4. Add a few more minor orders to the unit orders submenu (cancel orders for example).

5. Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

6. Build a model for an actual player (at present there are civilizations, but no players).

7. AI REDUCED TO A RUDIMENTARY FORM, see Marks post. Provide some sort of AI (probably a port of the D4 version) for non-player civilizations.

8. Make sure that there is adequate feedback to the player on events during a move.

9. All the things I have forgotten. Tidy up the unit selection system in movement.

Cheers

	12-09-2001 02:54									#8
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The present state:

1. DONE. Test the terrain modification, and link the terrain to images.

2. DONE. Finish and test the unit movement system.

3. DONE. Make sure the combat system works.

4. DONE. Add a few more minor orders to the unit orders submenu (cancel orders for example).

5. (D6?) Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

6. DONE. Build a model for an actual player (at present there are civilizations, but no players).

7. AI REDUCED TO A RUDIMENTARY FORM, see Marks post. Provide some sort of AI (probably a port of the D4 version) for non-player civilizations.

8. Make sure that there is adequate feedback to the player on events during a move.

9. All the things I have forgotten. Tidy up the unit selection system in movement.

Cheers

	21-09-2001 06:19									#9
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The present state:

1. DONE. Test the terrain modification, and link the terrain to images.

2. DONE. Finish and test the unit movement system.

3. DONE. Make sure the combat system works.

4. DONE. Add a few more minor orders to the unit orders submenu (cancel orders for example).

5. (D6?) Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

6. DONE. Build a model for an actual player (at present there are civilizations, but no players).

7. DONE AI REDUCED TO A not totally RUDIMENTARY FORM. Provide some sort of AI for non-player civilizations.

8. Make sure that there is adequate feedback to the player on events during a move.

9. All the things I have forgotten.
Tidy up the unit selection system in movement.
Test the system thoroughly.

Cheers

	21-09-2001 06:24									#10
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Bit off topic, but I want to get it on record so Mark can go crook about it.

Plans for D6.

These are the immediate things I intend to do for D6, more or less in order:

1. Make the map larger and scrollable.

2. Provide for a world map.

3. Get rid of Xerces (the XML scanner). I like Laurent's XML stuff and will use that as the basis, but recode the very small part of Xerces that we need.

4. Make all the currently hard coded data into XML files.

5. Build the tech stuff (written and working, though the data isn't yet available) in.

6. Work on the government and social stuff.

7. Make a consistent list of available commands. Make the commands available through key strokes.

8. And, as always, everything else I have forgotten.

Cheers

	21-09-2001 12:45									#11
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Wow, looks like you guys are actually getting close Good thing too, 'cause I don't know if I can wait much longer: I wanna play!

quote: Originally posted by Gary Thomas 5. (D6?) Implement Mark's alternative TF manipulation system.

If you can postpone it to D6, please do! People have been waiting for D5 for way too long already... Besides, if I were you guys I would try to release D5 before Civ3 ships (or at least not right after it's release) or you could find yourselves with a severe lack of interest

	22-09-2001 01:34									#12
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Gary: 'go crook' ? What the heck does that mean so I can do it

I'll hold off on my comments on D6 'till we have a dedicated thread. Want to start it with your comments above?

Hi Locutus -- I'm with you and Gary, 'my' system can easily wait for D6. Its just time to get D5 out.

	22-09-2001 04:41									#13
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quote: Gary: 'go crook' ? What the heck does that mean so I can do it

Can't you understand plain Kiwi? It means whinge.

Cheers

	22-09-2001 15:40									#14
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Awwww, do I haaaave to whine to keep you haappy? I'd much rather criticize

	23-09-2001 20:38									#15
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Not whine but "whinge", "complain", "object", "find fault" and all those things that project directors do so well.

D5 has hit a minor but maddening glitch. I am having trouble getting the TF panel scroll bars to work. I am darned if I can see what is wrong. This is only relevant if you have a lot of units in a square, and even then the panel can be enlarged to see all of them. However, there is a matter of principle involved.

Now go crook.

Cheers

	23-09-2001 21:10									#16
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Shows my lack of knowlege of your kind 'o' English. I had though whinge and whine were synonymous based on limited understanding of how whinge was used in 'britcoms'.

	23-09-2001 23:33									#17
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I was a bit careless, "whinge" really does mean whine or complain peevishly (Concise Oxford Dictionary).

On the other hand "to go crook at" means to become angry at, to complain vehemently at (Oxford New Zealand Dictionary). In actual practice (hey, I live here) it is less vehement than that. Basically it implies a mild reproof or (horrors!) a criticism of any kind.

Cheers

	26-09-2001 02:04									#18
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The present state of D5:

The only remaining improvement:

1. I am improving the random map (from complete randomness to something with some dim resemblance to real terrain).

The known bugs:

2. Occasionally the battles collapse with an error in the support function.

3. Having an enemy unit move through a square doesn't cancel production for that square.

4. A really subtle bug in the path finding algorithm, that very occasionally exits with a slightly less than optimal solution. I know what it is but haven't yet figured out a solution.

5. The information frame doesn't scroll when things are added to it.

6. The scroller in the unit details frame doesn't show up at all.

7. Sometimes an overwhelming force doesn't damage a vastly inferior force in combat.

8. All the other ones I don't know about.

Cheers

	26-09-2001 16:42									#19
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It occurs to me that #7 may not be a bug at all, it might be an intended result of the mil model. Even if it isn't it could be a useful feature. In many cases, especially guerilla war, a tiny force has the ability to evade detection and direct confrontation while harassing a larger force. Even if we do find this bug, it might be good to save it and isolate it and allow partisans, guerillas, and commandos to exploit it.

	27-09-2001 08:31									#20
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Point 7 may be a consequence of the fact that outnumbered armies flee in the model. I probably didn't change the square they were in, at least for defending armies.

	27-09-2001 23:07									#21
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I have a feeling that the unit was a cavalry unit, so it probably got away.

Cheers

	28-09-2001 06:20									#22
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So normal units run away when outnumbered, presumably moving to some other square. I like that; it is much better than the "fight to the death" in so many other games.

It seems like it should be easy to set a flag for partisan or guerilla type units to let them stay in the same square when they "retreat" from a fight. That way they can stay around to harass the invading army, and cannot be dislodged easily.

	30-09-2001 01:43									#23
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That's a good idea on partisans Richard. You may want to stick it in the mil thread so it doesn't get lost here, though I think we'll probably remember it since it makes sense.

	13-10-2001 11:14									#24
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I have a problem with my mail account this morning. Gary, Mark, I sent you an update of the military code correcting the 2 known bugs (blocking eception and disband of TF into armies). If you didn't receive them, please say so here: I'll try to resend them somehow.

	13-10-2001 16:53									#25
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Gary:

Do you think we should have a test deployment to one or two team members just to make sure there aren't any big problems on that end?

Laurent:

I got it! Thanks, I checked it out. Unfortunately, there's an error that's hard to get around.

-20 New error associated with disbanding TFs into armies. Best as I can figure it happened when two opposing phalanx (one from each side) met in a square.

java.lang.NullPointerException
at game.model.military.TaskForce.disbandIntoArmies(TaskForce.java:163)
at game.model.military.BattleMatching.tidyTempTaskForces(BattleMatching.
java:432)
at game.controller.EncounterManager.assault(EncounterManager.java:224)
at game.controller.EncounterManager.fight(EncounterManager.java:150)
at game.controller.EncounterManager.meet(EncounterManager.java:104)
at game.controller.EncounterManager.manageSquare(EncounterManager.java:4
2)
at game.controller.EncounterManager.newTick(EncounterManager.java:25)
at game.controller.TurnManager.movement(TurnManager.java:86)
at game.controller.TurnManager.run(TurnManager.java:70)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 13-10-2001 at 17:20

	14-10-2001 08:41									#26
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Laurent: I got it.

Progress:

Everything is done. Only pre-release testing remains.

I might do the scrollable map part, but that isn't needed for D5 (since the three scenarios all fit in a single screen map). I also might do my intended fix on the XML parser. The only effect that will have is to make the download about 1.5Mb smaller.

I wouldn't mind getting some feedback on this.

Cheers

	14-10-2001 19:25									#27
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Hi Gary:

My take on the parsing code reduction is to do it if its not going to take too long. (Maybe 4 hrs or less) If people have to download a JRE its going to be several MB anyway, so I don't see a huge advantage to the parsing code reduction.

Personally I'd skip the map scrolling for now since it might give us another set of bugs, and I would give accelerating deployment priority.

	15-10-2001 04:49									#28
	Got spare money?

Parser: I agree. I will work on it from time to time. If it is ready, so be it.

Scrollable map: too late, too late, too late. It is done. Bugless too.

Cheers

	15-10-2001 04:54									#29
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I have been working on the deployment for D5. This will be through InstallAnywhere.

We will definitely provide a version for Windows, with and without the Java Virtual Machine (which is around 3.5Mb extra).

The without Java version will also run on a Mac with OS X (I think).

Other possiblities will be dealt with on request. Options are (all with or without Java): SPARC Solaris, Intel Solaris, Intel Linux, Mac OS Classic, and HP. There are a few other rare possibilities.

Cheers

	16-10-2001 05:57									#30
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What remains for D5:

Some bug fixes (just sent list off to Gary and Laurent)
D5 Manual additions/revisions (Gary/Laurent please look it over soon)
Dom to get a web page going for the eventual download.

Test deployment of demo & manual to one or two team members
Correct deployment method and manual if needed

What else?