25-07-2001 22:09									#1
	Faction Ideology in Social Engineering Enter the AD-FREE zone

There are restrictions for factions based on their ideologies, as in each faction has an aversion to some kind of social engineering choice.

I was just idly speculating as to just what choices each faction would make if they were running their empires based solely on ideology with no practical aspects.

The choices would be stupid on occasion, amplifying strengths and weaknesses present in the social factors intrinsic to each faction.

I'll probably get ignored, but if anyone has a point of view for any faction and the politics, economics, values and future society they would run based on ideology I'd be interested.

For example, the Gaians would probably be Democratic, Green, Knowledge and Eudaimonic.

In short, hippies, the lot of them! Not too sure about the future society choice, because cybernetic gives the +2 Planet rating. Would Deirdre hand over her administration to computers so she could spend more time dancing naked through the trees?

This of course has no relevance to the game, unless you really like to get into character...

	25-07-2001 23:02									#2
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I think it's more interesting to talk about SE choices that are available to factions but seem out-of-place. For example, take Fundamentalist. It would make sense if the Gaians go Fundy, especially if they want to go on a temporary ecoterrorism rampage. But Morgan? What would that guy want to be so Fundamentalist about?

Another example: Yang can choose a Free Market, especially if he also adds Wealth and Golden Age to get to the critical point of +2 Economy. But would such choices make sense given his ideals for an atheistic police state?

One more example: Santiago can choose any SE setting except Wealth. But it seems all the SE settings available to her make perfect sense. Free Market? Yeah, a free market for guns. Green? Only to support an army of mindworms. Knowledge? Of course, they're always researching new ways to kill!

	26-07-2001 01:19									#3
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Just a thought on Yang. Strictly by ideology, his future society would have to be thought control, IMHO.

I'd like to know what people think about Lal's future society. I think he would most certainly be Dem/Green/Knowledge/Eudaimonic, but he could also be cybernetic. What does everyone think?

	26-07-2001 02:02									#4
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Lal is the opposite of Yang and Sparta, thus, he is a capitalist, thus, he would choose wealth...damn Arab oil shieks (no offense to any Arabs)

	26-07-2001 02:06									#5
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would Lal give´up his democratic powress to an AI? I think not... Eudaimonia, definitely.
Miriam would be Yangish, Fund/Planned/Power/Eudaimonia.
Santiago; Police/Planned/Power/Thought ctrl.
Pirates are a pretty tough call IMHO. Maybe Demo/Free/Power/Eudaimonia. They are pirates, so maybe Wealth...

	26-07-2001 04:01									#6
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Yay, I get to make a list:

Gaians: Fundamentalist/Green/Knowlege/Eudiamonic
Hive: Police State/Planned/Power/Thought Control
Believers: Fundamentalist/Planned/Power/Thought Control
Morganites: Democratic/Free Market/Wealth/Eudiamonic
University: Democratic/Planned/Knowledge/Cybernetic
Spartans: Police State/Planned/Power/Thought Control
Peacekeepers: Democratic/Free Market/Knowledge/Eudiamonic

Cult: Fundamentalist/Green/Power/Though Control
Cyborgs: Democratic/Planned/Knowledge/Cybernetic
Pirates: Democratic/Free Market/Power/
Drones: Democratic/Planned/Power/Eudiamonic
Angels: Democratic/Free Market/Knowledge/Cybernetic
Usurpers: Police State/Planned/Power/Thought Control
Caretakers: Fundamentalist/Planned/Power/Cybernetic



Now if you want to go for wierd/opposite settings: (a few favorites)

Hive in Eudiamonic
Believers in Wealth/Cybernetic
Morganites in Police State/Thought Control is sort of appropirate in a way. Especially Thought Control through advertising.
University in Thought Control
Peacekeepers in Fundamentalist/Thought Control

Cult in Planned is appropirate. Remember they pollute a fair amount according to their description.
Cyborgs in Free Market/Wealth or Though Control
Drones in Police State/Free Market/Power/Thought Control is one of my Favorites. Everything they hate in one go (except maybe power).
Angels in Police State/Thought Control

On a side note, I find it funny that the drones can use planned. I would have thought industrial wage slaving would be their nemesis. Although I understand that if you think of them as pro-union industrial workers they would hate Green and love Planned.

	26-07-2001 04:54									#7
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I think of the peacekeepers as essentially a fundamentalist group. They are so 'charter-thumping' and use that as a cover to hide their desire to convert everyone to their beliefs. Of all the factions, they seem the most righteous. Miriam is righteous, but seems to understand she's alone. Lal seems to see the world as misunderstanding the obvious truths of secular humanism. I like Yangs position (seemingly). He doesn't really care about anything but the Hive.

-Smack

	26-07-2001 05:05									#8
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I still say Lal would go green b/c of all of the tech and facility blurbs. Many of them talk about the ecology of Planet and foolishly disrupting it and so on and so forth...

	27-07-2001 02:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by death_head Lal is the opposite of Yang and Sparta, thus, he is a capitalist, thus, he would choose wealth...damn Arab oil shieks (no offense to any Arabs)

He's Indian. Listen carefully to the inflection of his 'V's as 'W'
(And it says so in his faction profile.. )

No offense taken

	27-07-2001 02:12									#10
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I think cyborgs work very well with Free Market considering they have enough efficiency even without Green. And I don't think their cybernetic ideology has much enthusiasm towards Ecological thinking or mindworm preservation.

I think Drone ideology is close to socialism we know. Perhaps a bit more genuine and working class centered. All socialisms did pervert into Dictatorships with even worst class societies than in the West, things got better here(!)...and now they're getting worst...

	27-07-2001 02:33									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Nadexander He's Indian. Listen carefully to the inflection of his 'V's as 'W' (And it says so in his faction profile.. )

"Lal" means love or something else cuddly in Hindi, which is talked just about only in India.

	27-07-2001 03:51									#12
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We don't have to wonder if Lal would go AI.
He went cybernetic.
Check through the soundfiles.
Tech52:
"I think, and my thoughts cross the barrier, into the synapses of the machine, just as the good doctor intended; but what I cannot shake, and what hints at things to come, is that throughts cross back. In my dreams, the sensibility of the machine invades the perifery of my conciousness: Dark, rigid, cold, alien. Evolution is at work here, but just what is evolving remains to be seen."
Comissioner Provin Lal, Man and Machine.


Indra

	27-07-2001 05:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Smack I think of the peacekeepers as essentially a fundamentalist group. They are so 'charter-thumping' and use that as a cover to hide their desire to convert everyone to their beliefs. Of all the factions, they seem the most righteous. Miriam is righteous, but seems to understand she's alone. Lal seems to see the world as misunderstanding the obvious truths of secular humanism. I like Yangs position (seemingly). He doesn't really care about anything but the Hive. -Smack

Well, I really don't see Lal the same way you do. Excluding how the AI seems to play Lal like the backstabber he isn't (or shouldn't be, in my opinion), I think Lal is most concerned about preserving and advancing the cause of inalienable human rights. Sure, he has a desire to convert all of Planet over to his side, but it seems people are indeed listening to him, or else he wouldn't be getting 50% more Council votes than the other factions.

So Lal is definitely one who prefers Democratic over anything else. He's probably flexible with any choice of SE Economics, depending on which political party within his faction has the majority at the time (Republican, Democrat, or Green ). He'll also be rather flexible with SE Values, though I can't imagine him staying in Power for a very long period of time. Probably only to carry out UN-style "peacekeeping" missions, and only for a short while.

As for Future Society, I can definitely see him preferring Eudamonia over anything else. (To Black Sunrise) We know Lal experienced what it's like to go cybernetic, but that doesn't mean he prefers to go that route en force. Indeed, by the time of Future Societies, every faction will have researched and implemented technologies like Mind/Machine Interface and Sentient Computers (sp?), even those who have issues with them. Heck, I'll bet even Miriam would not hesitate to use these techs, if only as a means to a contradictory end.

	27-07-2001 14:33									#14
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I think the Lal we know from 'Journey to Alpha Centauri' or Michael Ely's Centauri Dawn is not the same we face in via commlink diplomacy. Though Centauri Dawn is somewhat in contradiction with the original 'Journey to Alpha Centauri', but nothing that major. In game, Lal is a genuine and true backstabber, as said.

Miriam commlink alter ego is also interesting. In Journey to Alpha Centauri Miriam was one the two becoming faction leaders that were against the idea of sharing the landing pods between the officers. And Miriam seemed also very peaceful, empathic and understanding...nothing like fundamentalist we see in the game. I guess she just lost it during the landing.

	27-07-2001 18:32									#15
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quote: I think of the peacekeepers as essentially a fundamentalist group. They are so 'charter-thumping' and use that as a cover to hide their desire to convert everyone to their beliefs. Of all the factions, they seem the most righteous. Miriam is righteous, but seems to understand she's alone. Lal seems to see the world as misunderstanding the obvious truths of secular humanism.

Well said. I think the real UN and the US Democratic party both fall into this trap.

As far as the game goes, seems like it's not possible for the AI to effectively play the Peacekeeper faction in the spirit in which it was intended.

And what to say about Deidre? I'm too young to know firsthand, but everything I've seen, read, and heard about tells me that hippies were fundamentalists of this type, too.

And on the lighter side - what about those Pirates? If we think of them as happy-go-lucky swashbuckling rogue privateers, then there's no organized government. You've got Frontier and Wealth. Future society? Who cares about the future? We're having too good of a time now... But the truth is rarely so glamorous - more realistically, they'd be run like a brutal organized crime syndicate. But I like to think Sven and his followers are better than that.

	27-07-2001 23:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bobyk464 And on the lighter side - what about those Pirates? If we think of them as happy-go-lucky swashbuckling rogue privateers, then there's no organized government. You've got Frontier and Wealth. Future society? Who cares about the future? We're having too good of a time now... But the truth is rarely so glamorous - more realistically, they'd be run like a brutal organized crime syndicate. But I like to think Sven and his followers are better than that.

Pirates and Wealth? The idea of SE Wealth is to generate your own, not take that of others. So the Pirates would necessarily go for SE Power. As for government, I guess Frontier would make sense, given that there is no centralized government like you said. Economics? Either Simple or Free Market.

	27-07-2001 23:40									#17
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Good point.

	27-07-2001 23:45									#18
	Re: Faction Ideology in Social Engineering Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Alynzia In short, hippies, the lot of them! Not too sure about the future society choice, because cybernetic gives the +2 Planet rating. Would Deirdre hand over her administration to computers so she could spend more time dancing naked through the trees?

I think this has been mentioned before on the boards but it seems like it would more apropriate if cybernetic had the +2 Industry (precision and efficiency of cyborgs allow for more effective production) and eudimonia had the +2 planet (enlightened humans at peace with the universe are more likely to commune with nature). I think this a great change because it helps with game balance and also makes the roleplaying aspect more interesting.
In this light i think i can totally see eudimoniac gaians spending all day frolicking naked in the trees Now I can see where that +2 to population growth comes from.

quote: This of course has no relevance to the game, unless you really like to get into character...

Of course! Thats the best part. Whats the point of playing Yang if you cant nerve staple captured bases

	28-07-2001 01:56									#19
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quote: As far as the game goes, seems like it's not possible for the AI to effectively play the Peacekeeper

Pacifist settings might have helped. But if you want to conduct UN style Peacekeeping you can't really be a pacifist in the true meaning of the word. But it might have suited better than the Erratic, in sake of realism. In the end UN Peacekeepers are suppose to be something more than an ordinary faction, something which they aren't.

I usually choose the faction's agenda in SE, simply because what's the point of playing a role of idealist, if you don't play according to ideals. However, in most cases the best choice is to choose the faction's agenda even from the perspective of political realities. And most of the SE choices which would seem to support faction's original intentions seem to support the overall strategy. There's little point of playing Gaian's with Police State or Yang with Free Market. You need to make most of those faction bonuses, whatever they are.

	28-07-2001 06:33									#20
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I don't know why, but I always thought of Yang eventually aiming for a Eudaimonaic society at the end - his present state of self-denial and state-empowerment is akin to the Marxist ideal of Communist leaders.

In other words, the state control, like the idea of a "Communist leader" (essentially a self contradiction) is only an initial and temporary arrangement - the end result is one that can be directly achieved only after certain ideologies have been shed.

I got that impression of Yang - namely, that he practised the same asceticisms that he imposed on his people, purely so that when they had been sufficiently reformed, the state and human endeavor would be synonymous.

	28-07-2001 11:39									#21
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as for the spartans i think they would go

police state
free market
power (in war) knowledge (in peace)
then probably cyber

with the extra starting police stats and with a police state/fm/kno/cyber you have a faction that is really good at research and can still fight

	28-07-2001 19:42									#22
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quote: I don't know why, but I always thought of Yang eventually aiming for a Eudaimonaic society at the end - his present state of self-denial and state-empowerment is akin to the Marxist ideal of Communist leaders.

Yang's high security police state with implanted Big Brother attitude is that far from communism. And the idea from trespassing into communism by using party dictatorship is the idea by V.I. Lenin.

Yang however practised full-blown totalitarian system in which The State, not the People, not All Workers of the World served as the final purpose. In fact Yang was an aristocrat who believed into elite individuals rather than masses. The very thing communism fought against. Considering the quotes of Yang about Drones it's easy to recognize the pity, fear and untrust he felt towards lower class.

The basic definition of totalitarian system is "The State is self serving purpose of existance, the absolute value behind all actions and motives". When looking back into this definition nothing falls better into category than Hive.

I say he goes for Thought Control.

	29-07-2001 07:00									#23
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quote: I think of the peacekeepers as essentially a fundamentalist group. They are so 'charter-thumping' and use that as a cover to hide their desire to convert everyone to their beliefs.

All the factions are guilty of advocating their own ideology. This doesn't make them fundamentalist. After all, the game is about 7 leaders who shatter their mission because they can't agree.

Lal's ideology is to convince different cultures to respect each other and to work in harmony. That's why the Peacekeepers get +2 population limit. He's also from a country composed of different cultures that are trying not to fight each other. Hence, the PKs avoid excessive police or monocultures - Democratic.

His dismay during Mind/Machine Interface suggests he favours individual over corporate power. The exploits of Free Market is right out. His advocation during Centauri Preserve and Centauri Psi suggests a planet friendly economy, though mostly to prevent Mind Worm attacks - Green.

He advocates free information and self-teaching, hence his opening speech and libraries as Recreation Commons - Knowledge.

Future society is less obvious, though clearly not Thought Control. Considering the society encourages Talents - Eudaimonic