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kolpo
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Japon is a very ancient civilization, with it's own culture, history and that has had in many time areas much influence in it's region.
As special unit am I against a kamikazee plane because that is just one unit of a shorth dark despotistic time in Japon. Most of the time was Japon completely different and now are they one of the biggest pacifists on earth(just look to the size of there army in comparision with there economic power).
I suggest instead one of the types of ships(sorry don't know there names) they used in the Russian-Japon war. This was the first time that a non-european civilization completely beated a big European one(at that times was Russia a part of European culture).
But I have an even much better argument to include Japon(for Firaxis): It's a very big market for computer games! They have some national pride(like all countries) so civ3 will sell there better if Japon is included. More $, you hear me Firaxis? Just look to the succes of the movie "Pearl Habor" in Japon and you can see that Japon history(if Japon is included in civ3) sells well.
Btw, no I don't live in Japon or Asia. I just think that such an important and ancient culture and nation should be included.
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Dida
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Japan should not be includeded. It has very short history, (ancient compare to the US), it was still in the Dark Age up till Tang Dynasty. Most Japan's culture were just chinese-clone.
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Mahdimael
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Sandy Eigo, CA, USA
May 2001
time: 05:14
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Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case.
I think Civ tries to include civs that have either arisen to greatness, who have a cultural singularity or who have good historical relevance. Spain should be included, as should the Vikings. I think the Japanese should be included for the single reason of their culture, which is distinct from other Asian nations
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Al'Kimiya
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quote:
Originally posted by Mahdimael
Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case.
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Greek civilization started with the Minoan culture about 2000 BC. And Rome was built about 700 BC (according to legend). The Babylonians were originally Akkadians who invaded the Sumerians about 1800 BC (or something like that). So about 4000 BC we have at most Sumer, Egypt and perhaps some "Indo-European" civ.
But... it's just a game...
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death_head
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Caledonia, IL, USA
Jul 2000
time: 23:14
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I believe America should be in the game, as they have become the most influential country in the world.
I also believe that Japan is an American franchise.
Thus, they should both be in.
Yes, I have posted these thoughts before, but now they are together, and thus more understandable.
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:14
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quote:
Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case. |
Actually the ancient Egyptian empire didn't really begin until 2686. The 'Old Kingdom' kingdom lasted from 2686-2181 bc, the "Middle Kingdom' lasted drom 1991-1786 bc, and the 'New Kingdom' lasted from 1554-1070 bc.
I do think that Japan should be included as a civ. They have been a civ for a very long time and have a very unique Asian culture. Japan has basically their very own religion, Shintoism. I say this because a large part of the pop. believes in Shintoism and Shintoism has most of it's followers are Japanesse. Not many other civs now can say that they have their own religion. That is something that does show that Japan should be a civ in Civ3. Japan has very good capitalist enconomy (set up by US after WW2). The Navy is fairly good sized. They have had a large military in some points in history. They've been included in many modern day affairs. Have a great rivalry with many Asian nations (China, Korea, etc...). Japan is has been able to be a nation even with the fact that they are on a very small island (like England). Did have many scuffles with China in history. Had some great battles with Khan. I think all these reasons support why Japan should be in Civ3 and with these reasons being taken into consideration Japan might very well be a civ in Civ3.
I think Japan's specific unit should be a samurai. I don't believe that it should be this powerful though "a kickass (attack 10, both melee and ranged ) unit". That would be just as powerful as an armor from Civ2. Maybe 5 attack, 1 def, 2 move (Civ2 Knight- 4 att, 2 def, 2 move). The knight is there just to give you an idea of how power ful the samurai unit would be.
Side Note:
I happen to think to balance the specific units they shouldn't be much powerful than other regular units of their time. Example- American F15- (I think that is their specific unit) 15 att, 5 def, 14 move & a regular, Civ2 stealth bomber- 14 att, 5 def, 12 move. So my point is that to make civ-specific units be balanced with the game they shouldn't be too much more powerful than a unit (same premise though- land to land, air to air, naval to naval) of their time.
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Mark_Lipovrovskiy
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Israel
Aug 2000
time: 05:14
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I was joking about the 10/10 and all... But hey, a Jap officer DID defeat Europe's best fencer, and Samurai bows were known to sink ships (!!!)
Just a piece of trivia: The Japanese measured the strength of bows by how many strong men are needed to put the string... There were 6, 12, 16 bows, and maybe even more. The Japanese art of using the bow (the name of which escapes me), is closely linked with Zen, a meditative sect of Buddhism that evolved mostly in Japan. Those arts could (and can) give the Warrior what seems to be superhuman strength (although it is based on the most efficient utilisation of muscles blah blah and is quite above normal human strength). I just hope that some REAL expert doesen't show up... 
Also, Japanese steel is real sharp and can cut through armor quite easily. I believe that the samurai should be stronget than the Knight - maybe (I prefer the CTP system, although it has been so much since I played that i don't remember it very well) 6 melee, 5 ranged, 2 defence(because their attacks are so decisive they didn't invest too much in defence), 2 move with perhaps a modified "explorer" bonus - all tiles 1. They were extremely mobile, you know. Infantry is very mobile and they're the best pre-gunpowder infantry in the world and prob. could defeat ancient gunpowder units too. Look at how martial artists kick armed ass today, and add total determination and discipline, a deadly katana and a really, really big bow. Now take a group of those, put a brilliant tactician there and see what happens.  
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Dida
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You people really need to straighten up you knowledge about Japan. Shintoism is not pure Japanese religion, its central idea was Japanese legand combined with Taoism from China. Zen Buddhism did not started in Japan even though it bares a Japanese name. It was started in China during the 6th century. Japan basically has no culture of its own. Even its writting is borrowed from China. During the Tang Dynasty, Japan sends thousands of students to Tang to learn from the more advanced civilization. They brought back not only the literature, but also the religion, the way of life and pholishophy.
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Dida
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Japanese culture can only be considered a branch of Chinese culture.
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DrFell
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If Japan shouldn't be included becuase they don't have a completely distinctive culture, one that has borrowed heavily from Chinese culture, why don't we just take out all the European civs and put in the Greeks and Germans. After all, most European cultures could be considered mere offshoots of Greek/Germanic cultures.
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kolpo
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"pre Zen" orginated in India but was not really big there. Later migrated it to China, there changed it over time and was adapted to Chinese culture, they call this tradition Chan. Chan migrated to Japan, it changed there over time, this tradition is called zen.
In India means pre zen quite nothing anymore, in China has it some influence on Tibet and the Mongolian provinces(but even they are mainly influence buy other Buddistic schools) but other then that is it's influence gone. In Japan had and has it still a very big influence on the japan culture. This culuture is in fact for a big part a zen culture.
Discipline, controling ones body, controling ones emotions and being not selfcentered(but more on company they work for, nation,family...) are a big part of the Japan culture and zen is one of the big reasons they are like that.
But back to the subject: I would like Japan to be include because they are original. Not just military expansionists like most other civilizations but instead a somewhat isolasionistic nation that tries to improve what they have instead of expansion. (perfectionistic strategy except WWII but that was an exception, before WWII have they also had a good economy).
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Mark_Lipovrovskiy
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Israel
Aug 2000
time: 05:14
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In fact, I'd say that Japan is aggressive militaristic perfectionist. If this is possible at all... If you have "isolationist" there then militaristic isolationist perfectionist would fit them better.
And yes, I do think that non-militaristic civs should go it - the world wasn't built entirely on war, after all. But then the game would have to give more power to the pacifists - which I suspect the new trade system is doing.
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DrFell
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quote:
Originally posted by Gangerolf
The Germans are also an offshoot of the ancient Germanic tribes. "German" is not synonymous with"Germanic". The Germans are not more Germanic than the Scandinavians or the English. |
Yeah I was just using the Germans as they're the closest thing to the Germanic tribes in the game (except perhaps Vikings as the tribes themselves mostly migrated from Scandinavia). Obviously, the point is that Civ3 is going to include less cultures than civs. Simply because a 'civ' borrowed certain cultural aspects off another nearby nation is not a reason not to include them.
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Dida
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By saying Japanese Culture is a banch from China is not undermining the cultural achievement of the Japanese people. There are 5 main source of civilization. They are Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Indian, Chinese. Japanese culture was a branch from the Chinese root. It should not be included, because, 1) it was not significant culturally. 2) japan did not play a role internationally until the 20th century.
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26-07-2001 01:17
) unit from just before the medival time right up to the middle of the Industrial Revolution.
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