27-07-2001 01:10									#1
	Brood Pits, Children's Creche's, Morale vs. Life Cycle Full PM-box? Change here!

Brood Pits are said to be Children's Creche's for native life, but they seem to have a permanent effect on "life cycle" while the Creche appears to have a negative morale cancelling effect only on units in a base, if at all.

Wealth and Eudaimonia each provide a -2 morale. Children's Creche's are supposed to cancel negative morale effects. But, if they do, I don't understand how. Units created under Wealth definitely show a -2 morale regardless of whether they were created in a base with a CC or not. In contrast, units created under other SE choices show no negative effects from Wealth. Elite units stay elite.

No so with Brood Pits.

Native life emerging from a Brood Pit under Wealth can emerge as Demon Boils. They stay that way, permanently, regardless of subsequent SE changes.

Also, I beleive Wealth has no negative effect on lifecyles of previously created native units. This is consistent with what I have observed with convention units' morale. No negative effects.

Does anyone really understand this?

Ned

	27-07-2001 01:21									#2
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As far as I recall units within the city containing children's creche receive +1 Morale Modifier, nice. But if moral is negative modifiers are disabled, so it won't have any effect at all. So Children's Creche doesn't neutralize negative moral, it's pretty useless if you have bad morale.

SE choices are suppose to have an imminent affect on morale, negative or positive. But if moral is THAT good with all the facilities and such, even negative morale SE choices might not be enough to repel the bonus.

I haven't noticed, or heard, that morale has anything to do with the lifecycle. But I have less experience from this. All I know is that when I choose Wealth my morale does degenerate one level as it's suppose to....and that's bad enough.

	27-07-2001 01:26									#3
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Increases to Life Cycle, from techs, facilities, and secret projects, are applied at the time a native unite finishes production. They are not remove for any reason after that, not are they applied retroactively to units produce befor the the bonus was available.
I am not sure how much bonus the creche give to moral, but par of it only applies while defending a base with a creche, I believe (??) that one level of bonus is applied anywhere as long the the unit is supported from a base with a creche..

	27-07-2001 01:46									#4
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If I recall the debate correctly, they came to the conclusion that the benefits of the Children's Creche were: Negation of negative morale modifiers WITHIN YOUR BORDERS (You'll notice the +++'s next to the units morale level which indicate bonuses to morale though the morale name doesn't change), not just the base square, though the unit needs to be supported from a base with a Children's Creche. The Creche also gives a undocumented +1 to morale, again, if I remember correctly.

So you may have a unit that is very green, yet has multiple +'s next to its morale level that negates the negative modifiers. I would imagine there should be two, but with a Children's Creche in a base I'm not sure you can have a very green unit, though I believe I've experienced this, so perhaps you'd get three +'s (+++) which would indicate a level above and beyond the negation of negative morale modifiers.

What further complicates this issue is the fact that a SE rating of -2 morale also halves morale modifiers, which might explain why you're/we're not noticing the effects of a Children's Creche while in Wealth.

I hope this helped.

	27-07-2001 01:50									#5
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Adding to the pile of questions: When mind-controlling a unit away from the AI, it's morale is reset to whatever it would be at a base with no morale-facilities..or am I wrong in that? When I capture an Elite Spartan rover for example, it becomes 'Very Green' if I'm playing with negative morale SE choices. Not sure if nearby facilities affect this, but is my impression correct?

Believe that Creches are only supposed to reduce negative morale effects in the base. So a 'Very Green' unit would defend with no bonuses or penalties. Someone recently said, the worse the morale, the better the bonus of a Creche? I'm as confused as the rest of us. Also, I didn't think Creche's boosted the morale of units built at the base at all. Maybe I've overlooked something.

-Smack

	27-07-2001 03:07									#6
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants If I recall the debate correctly, they came to the conclusion that the benefits of the Children's Creche were: Negation of negative morale modifiers WITHIN YOUR BORDERS (You'll notice the +++'s next to the units morale level which indicate bonuses to morale though the morale name doesn't change), not just the base square, though the unit needs to be supported from a base with a Children's Creche.

AFAIK Children's creche only effects units in the base square itself. In other words units which are defending in the base or units which are in the base and attacking a unit adjacent to the base. This later really makes it worthwhile to plop a (pretty cheap) Best-1-1 clean infantry in bases that are at risk of attack. With decent morale and a Childrens Creche these guys can wind up attacking at +35% to +75%. This also works with artillery duels as well.

	27-07-2001 03:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Smack Believe that Creches are only supposed to reduce negative morale effects in the base. So a 'Very Green' unit would defend with no bonuses or penalties. Someone recently said, the worse the morale, the better the bonus of a Creche? I'm as confused as the rest of us. Also, I didn't think Creche's boosted the morale of units built at the base at all. Maybe I've overlooked something.

I once had an a elite unit under wealth defend in a city with childrens creche and the battle report showed:

Morale: Elite (++) : +75%

Only units _IN_ the base square get the benefits. Im pretty sure it makes any thing less than disciplined into disciplined. It also gives some kind of bonus (the ++ next to the morale name) but im not exactly sure how it works. Might have some thing with your SE level of morale.

	27-07-2001 09:49									#8
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I guess we are all seeing the same thing. Units created under Wealth receive a permanent -2 morale modifier. Creche's do not cancel this. However, there remains a dispute on whether Creche's have any effect when a unit is away from its base or outside one's home territory. I have been playing more with battle odds enabled just to understand this.

One thing, though, I believe that Power and Thought Control do add a morale boost to existing units, but, in contrast, I believe that Wealth does not similarly subtract. Wealth affect only units create with this SE setting. Does anyone know the answer?

Ned

	27-07-2001 12:47									#9
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An extra whacky effect (bug) is that CC's have an even GREATER effect on native life than normal units, I know this makes no sense but it does happen.

I believe the CC works like this:
Any unit in a base with a CC has it's morale increased by the same amount as the -ve morale SE. (I cant say it any less confusinly sorry)
An example, your faction has -2 morale. So every unit in a base with a CC gets 2 morale upgrades (for combat only), with an additional +1 morale boost for unit in territory (undocumented) because units by default are built "green", under wealth +3 morale is enough to bring the unit up to "disciplined", I actually believe the boost from a CC is the same regardless of the morale of the unit at that base, and the bizzare thing is that mindworms get the same boost, but because they dont suffer at all from the negative SE they get a massive in-base attack/denfense bonus, I've seen worms with +50% morale from the CC, on a demonboil, given it a whopping +100% attack (and defense).

There are further complications for 'human' units, namely the halved morale for <-1 morale SE, however note that simply by adding -ve morale +1 to every unit, the condition in the help text is always going to be satisfied, this is a very easy way to do it from a programming perspective, which is why I think it is the way it was done.

quote: All negative morale effects are cancelled for units in base square; instead such units receive a +1 MORALE modifier.

And the +1 morale modifier is the un documented in-territory benefit of the CC

	27-07-2001 14:52									#10
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I had no idea we were dealing with such a dilemma. Though interesting information has come up. I guess I'll have to try it for myself to be sure. It's annoyance that updated versions of SMACX have these undocumented enchancements. Some of them are updated to datalinks, but seemingly not all of them.

quote: ...I believe that Power and Thought Control do add a morale boost to existing units, but, in contrast, I believe that Wealth does not similarly subtract.

I believe that all morale tweaked through SE has an imminent affect to all units unincluding probes and mindworms.

	27-07-2001 20:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However, there remains a dispute on whether Creche's have any effect when a unit is away from its base or outside one's home territory

It gives a +1 everywhere. I have many times seen the morale of creche produce unit remain stable while moving around and even attacking enemy bases, and then drop one level when rehome to the newly captured base which does not have a creche, and then go back up one when the creche is built in the captured base.

	27-07-2001 22:19									#12
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(trying to be right-brained about this)
Presumably the tie in between Morale and the Creches is that the soldiers will me more motivated when protecting children at home from imminent danger than when venturing abroad. Jaded, decadent or pacifist soldiers become beserker warriors after seeing tapes of Aliens burning kids in the school-yard.

Undoing morale decrements due to SE while in the base is a reasonable expectation given this model; according to that theory, a minus 2 adjustment due to a unit being constructed under Wealth would turn into a zero adjustment.

Cancelling negative morale due to inexperience while in the base is another reasonable expectation given this model; according to that supposition, very green, etc., troops would be elevated (to disciplined?).

Perhaps it gets complicated when both factors are operating at the same time - which adjustment is made first, exactly how they are made, etc.

I can't say that I perfectly understand the plus signs etc. that come after the units' morale, but I suppose that they are the games way of keeping track of morale adjustments that have been built into that units current morale level. Perhaps they have room for improvement in their bookkeeping too.

Another thing I'd love to know is whether and if so, how, one can tell if a unit has already been morale-upgraded by a monolith - I find myself wasting trips to the monolith when the unit is already upgraded and I imagine that I often forget to upgrade some vintage units once my highway system gets good enough.

	27-07-2001 23:22									#13
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Here's what I know for sure about building units when you have negative morale:

Comm. Center, Bioenh. Center, etc. each gives +2 permanent bonus to morale of new units, if you are running at -1 SE Morale or better (i.e. no halving of positive modifiers).

Those same structures only give +1 permanent bonus each to morale of new units if you are running at -2 SE Morale or worse (i.e. positive modifiers halved). So if you have a lot of these structures built, you should shift your SE Morale settings above -2 if you want the most bang for the buck out of the structures.

SE Morale settings can be confusing. -2 SE Morale actually means -1 troop morale (which lasts only as long as you keep the SE setting) and positive modifiers halved (which is permanent to newly built units). Moving back to neutral SE Morale means all your units will automatically go up one level on the next turn, but the penalty previously applied to bonuses from military structures remains.

Children's Creches give a permanent +1 Morale bonus to newly built units regardless of SE Morale settings. I have verified this personally for the Gaians when their SE Morale settings is either at -1 or -3. I haven't verified this with a faction like the Spartans. But it seems if you want to build an army while in SE Wealth, Creches are a must.

	28-07-2001 00:56									#14
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I'll conform that eveything that Tenchusatsu said is correct.

+2 permenant affect from facilities in -1 MORALE or higher, +1 at -2 MORALE or lower.

Bonuses/penalties to morale from the MORALE setting other than the facilities part depends on current setting, AFAIK. It may not be variable though. -2 MORALE is -1 morale level, +2 MORALE is +1 morale (+2 morale on defense) etc.

Childrens Creche gives a +1 morale level to units homed to that base, regardless of location.

FURTHERMORE:

Childrens Creche negates the penaltie to morale level associated with a negative MORALE setting, put not the halving of facilitiy bonuses (which are permenant). I have heard this to apply to various locations, but I personally believe to be in your territory. The two normal locations mentioned are in its base or in any base, and inside your territory.

MORALE SE settings do NOT apply to native life. They have lifecycle, not morale. So a + or - to morale does not affect them.

There is some wierd effect of Childrens Creche on units of less than very green, which I am not total clear on, but I know someone else in the forums is.

An example (levels may not be totally correct, but just to get the idea).

Two bases. Both have commanb centrer and build a land unit. One base has a Children's Creche (applies to unit 2). Starting with a green morale (for arguments sake).

Starting at -2 MORALE, unit 1 gets +1 from the facility, -1 from SE. Ends up Green. Second unit gets +1 from facility, +1 from ChC, and -1 from SE. ends up disciplined. However, when in ChC radius of affect, -1 SE negated, end up hardened (or disciplined (+)).

Change to 0 MORALE. Unit 1, facility affect is permenant, but -1 SE becomes -0, goes to disciplined. Unit 2, -1 SE is becomes -0, goes to hardened. However, when under ChC radius of affect, it is still hardened, since there is not penalty to negate.

Starting at 0 MORALE, unit 1 gets +2 from the facility. Ends up Hardened. Second unit gets +2 from facility, +1 from ChC. Ends up Veteran (Commando?). No special effect from ChC other than +1 permanant base morale.

Change to -2 MORALE. Unit 1, facility affect is permenant, but 0 SE becomes -1, goes down to disciplined. Unit 2, 0 SE becomes -1, goes to hardened. However, when under ChC radius of affect, Then -1 penalty is negated, and the unit stays Veteran.

That the magic trick kids. Notice the unit built in Wealth is worse morale forever, bacause the facility affect is permenantly halved. Tada. =)

	28-07-2001 02:08									#15
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And I've always said the SMACX's Morale model isn't enough complex to compete with Morale in reality...I guess the complexity isn't the issue It certainly competes with that.

	28-07-2001 02:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Fitz Childrens Creche gives a +1 morale level to units homed to that base, regardless of location.

Thanks for that clarification. So if I built a unit in a base without a Creche, then sent it to a different base which does have a Creche and home it there, does it gain morale? And what about the reverse direction? I've seen rehomed units lose morale, but I've never seen a rehomed unit gain morale.

	28-07-2001 08:40									#17
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Fitz, Thanks for the examples. I now believe that I see no negative effects from Wealth, other than for units built under wealth, is because they are generally homed in bases with CC's.

Now, if you could, explain to me what the manual means when it says about Brood Pits,

"Acts as a Children's Creche for native units, if there is not already one at the base."

Ned

	29-07-2001 01:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now, if you could, explain to me what the manual means when it says about Brood Pits, "Acts as a Children's Creche for native units, if there is not already one at the base." Ned

Ned,

That is plain governmentese. And it explains the effects that people are seeing on mindworms, etc. If there is no Children's Creche at the base then if a Brood Pit is established in that base it will act on native life that same as a Children's Creche would except that the Brood Pit only effects the native life while the CC affects both human and native life.

So there may be slightly different overall effects on the Human units than there is on the native life if you build a CC. But a CC will work on both types of units while a Brood Pit only works on native life and only to the same extent that a CC would. There also may be comulative effects if you build both. I don't know since I very rarely build any native life units.

This translation brought to you courtisy of a former Documentation Creation Technician.

Ken

	30-07-2001 01:43									#19
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The last time a question like this came up, back in January, I tested all the situations I could think of involving Children's Creches. Repost:

These are the morale effects of the Children's Creche:

It does not affect the halving of beneficial training effects from Command Centres, Bioenhancement Centres etc.

It affects the basic morale of a fresh unit if you have a Morale SE setting of -1 or -2; in that case fresh units are Green instead of Very Green. (They are still Very Green at -3 or -4 Morale SE.) Bonuses due to facilities are added to this base.

Units in the base square get a temporary positive morale modifier, shown as a series of '+', as follows:

-4 or less Morale SE: (++++)
-3: (+++)
-2: (++)
-1: (++)
0 or greater: (+)

This modifier works both in attack and defence. Note that the bonus given is the number of negative morale shifts (which is different from SE value!) +1, which is what the datalinks mean when they say that negative morale modifiers are ignored and units instead get a +1 morale modifier.

(These are not the only ways to get (+) after a unit's morale. Very Green units always have one (+), which works only on defence. It is superseded by the bonus above. If you have a +2 or +3 Morale SE, your units get an extra morale bonus on defence, which is marked the same way, and is cumulative with the bonus above.)

None of the bonuses depend on your territory. They either apply everywhere (in the case of the basic morale level adjustment) or only in the base square (in the case of the temporary bonus).