09-11-2000 23:14									#1
	Stopping the howitzer Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

EST inspired the start of this topic with this quote :

quote: Howies are too strong. How do players defend against them in MP (assuming any MP game gets that far)?

	09-11-2000 23:37									#3
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Sorry for the double post but on a whim I just checked my post count and it was 666.

I had to do something about that!

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Frodo lives!
[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited November 09, 2000).]

	09-11-2000 23:57									#4
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a coordinated attack using nukes and cruise missiles on defensive strong points along with engineers to fix rails with howies for city attack is exceptionally hard to stop. i remember the first time this happened to me in mp. me and my opponent were evenly matched in terms of cities and units. i was behind in tech but quickly caught up in the details below. he attacked first with howies and mech inf to try to hold the cities he took. i had expected such an action and counter attacked with my own howies and mech inf. we battled on in this manner with little net result (he took some of my cities, i'd take mine back plus some of his, he'd then take his back and some of mine, repeat...). we'd use cruise missiles on occasion. he was able to build nukes first but i took the needed tech the next turn, and neither of us had sdi. we eventually nuked the cities we had trouble taking with howies, and used the howies to blast other cities. we both tried to cut rail at various points, but a 2 stack of settlers just made instant rail. we battled on in this manner for about 6 hours or so until we called it a morning (we'd played all night ). he was very gradually winning at the end.

basically my point is that cutting rail won't work unless you have a wall of defensive terrain between you and your enemy. plus cutting rail hinders your own attacks.

	10-11-2000 00:03									#5
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I have a good idea. When you have your frontier properly limited build a defensive line of fortresses and then terraform the land outwards by two squares into hills. Any attacking armies are halted by the hill barrier and if your enemies try and build roads on the hills then pillage them with helicopters.

	10-11-2000 00:08									#6
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that's a good one if:

1. you have time and room to do so
2. your opponent decides not to kill off your engineers

of course there's always attacks by sea....

	10-11-2000 01:14									#8
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the only way to prevent howies would be from across the ocean, made easier by magellans of course. Long distances favour the defender short water gives the attacker the advantage as he can blast with sea and air units and then land those howies Of course, some bad luck in the war can also even these results out

	10-11-2000 01:21									#9
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If you have the resources...build your main line straight through a mountain range......On mountain peaks incrementally create forts and stuff them chock full of mech infantry.....mech infantry are very cheap for you but very difficult to unseat from such a defense for your enemy, even with howitzers.....everything depends on the terrain in the end....

point is: If you build a nice fat, easy trip to your country you might as well put out a goddam welcome mat.....in a hostile world railroads are better for dometic use......in a friendly game where trade is prominent between civs, build away.......



***We need more pics to help describe strategy! I am a visual person and I have a hard time explaining and understanding a lot of the strategies discussed here.....I would love to help people try and diagram their ideas if they are not able to.....it would bring a little life to some of these strategies*****

	10-11-2000 01:41									#11
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I am more of a perfectionist than anything and I look down upon the use of nukes......of course that has nothing to do with what my enemy does though......does it.....you're right CW.....to a point

	10-11-2000 02:06									#12
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if a nuke will clear out a sticky defensive spot, i'll use it. i always have plenty of engineers to clean up afterwards

	10-11-2000 04:31									#13
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drake , i love it Graphs, damm i can't even post a url Still love the diagram, one should have intermitten forts where the rail begins especiall if in advantageous terrain.

ColdWizard is a true American Though this is deemed extremely viable even in the hands of peacefull Mercantilians like myself
[This message has been edited by Mercantile (edited November 09, 2000).]

	10-11-2000 06:58									#14
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to continue my statement.....to a point........

Once the first nuke is launched in a game, there can be no turning back. An arms race must begin, even for peace loving mercantilians. This is a very bad thing for everyone.....it makes everyone paranoid and they have to change their strategy because of the aggressor. If used enough (in combination with pre-existing pollution), global warming is going to happen sooner than later. This is also very bad for the world. So in my mind, if you're playing a MP game with several people, I see the use of nukes as a selfish act. That is why I would come up with a different solution...........but thats just me

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I get up around seven
Get outta bed around nine
And I don't worry about nothin' no
Cause worryin's a waste of my...time

	10-11-2000 16:02									#15
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i was merely bringing up that there was a way to punch through mech inf on mountains.

i'd use it against the ai, but in mp games, i'm nearly always defender rather than an agressor and unlikely to use nukes unless attacked.

	12-11-2000 10:59									#16
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a city with sdi in the mountains would provide adequate defense against nuke use. though the city may not be viable with 1x production.

edit: spelling
[This message has been edited by ColdWizard (edited November 11, 2000).]

	13-11-2000 15:20									#17
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The city itself does not need to be on the mountain - the Mech Inf fortress should be on a mountain within three squares of the SDI protected city - of course then the Alpine Horde comes and eats you - there is no 'perfect defensive strategy'.



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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	13-11-2000 15:23									#18
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nuke the horde while it is approaching

	13-11-2000 21:25									#19
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just park a stealth bomber over the mech fortress on the mountain top... or is this a cheat???

of course if you can build those why not just build a bunch of your own howitzers - fight fire with fire.

upgradeing your city center to hills can help a lot with defense also.

	13-11-2000 21:51									#20
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Scouse Gits is right about one thing- there definetly is no perfect defensive strategy. A good player should eventually work around any defenese (if they have the resources)

But I'm not sure about this:

quote: of course then the Alpine Horde comes and eats you

	13-11-2000 23:38									#21
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The way to take out the mech on a moutaintop is to take out the city he came from. Poof! No mech. Nuking him is a waste of engineers (to do the cleanup). If your nuking, nuke the cities fill 'em with helos or psrstroops (or surviving alpine units if the city is surrounded. Using explorers, the alpine units can bypass the fortified mechs. That tactic sounds like the Chinese in Korea.

	14-11-2000 01:38									#23
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As to blowing the explorers, he is advancing with your alpine troops. He steps while ignoring ZOCs. Then your troop can step because he has a unit to advance to. Repeat for three steps. Fighter faces alpine unit on a mountain square. (Stacked with an explorer.)

	15-11-2000 15:48									#24
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drake - of course you are correct - I used the Alpine Horde as an illustration because of its currency on another thread - my personal feeling is that the best form of defence is offence - hardly a new concept, but one that is ever so true in this game.

[sermon]
The fundamental problem being discussed here is caused by the inbuilt game inbalance that favours the defender at all stages of the game until the advent of the Howitzer - suddenly all bets are off and the kind of (lazy) defence that has worked like a charm for millenia needs to be reworked - hence this discussion. A proactive mobile defence will always be superior to a 'Maginot Line' approach - it's just that we don't actually need to practice this until the bad guy brings up the howie-powies.
[/sermon]

	15-11-2000 17:11									#25
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Very true, reverend Git, very true.

It is in SP and in our hands that Nemesis is just too strong a force. The A1s idea of a mobile defence to the howie seems to be to build yet another railway!

	16-11-2000 10:29									#26
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How very true SG- sitting holed up in your city allows an enemys advance to be un-disturbed... a cake walk. Having a strong battalion of units patrolling the outer borders of the kingdom will almost always be enough to slow the oncoming attack, or atleast give you ample time to send some reinforcements. If you wait until they are in a cities radius, you're in trouble...especially if we're talking howitzers.



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I get up around seven
Get outta bed around nine
And I don't worry about nothin' no
Cause worryin's a waste of my...time

	15-11-2000 23:12									#27
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Might I suggest a possible "work around" for mechs on mountains? Instead of alpine hoards, enough engineers coupled with explorers could concievably in a single turn create a road or railroad bypass, if the terrain is right. Once that's up and running your engineers and explorer create a ZOC bridge and a hoard of howitzers or what have you could come streaming thru any small hole in a city's defense completely unhindered. What I'm not sure of is if what number of engineers, if any, can create a road let alone a railroad on a mountain square in a single turn, if that's called for. Anyone have any thoughts or data on how many engineers to railroad a mountain, or various other terrains for that matter?

-Captain Psquire

	16-11-2000 01:30									#28
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I'm pretty sure it's impossible to create a railroad in 1 turn other than in flat terrain (plains, grassland, desert). I think you can get a road in 1 turn in hills, but I don't think you can even get a road in 1 turn in swamp, mountains, or jungle. It is something I have to check. But I have put like 10 engineers on a mountain railroad project. and it takes at least 1 turn- the turn after I mean

very good thread BTW. makes me want to go out and get MGE and play you guys.

but do your games ever get that far? to my understanding some players just use a knight rush, and the game rarely gets past that stage. And I prefer modern warfare to medieval stuff. Plus I would rather play a scenario than spending hours building up.
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited November 15, 2000).]

	16-11-2000 01:33									#29
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depends on who you play and whether their empire can handle not getting everything *their* strategy needs to win. i wish games were continued further and further but sometimes its pointless. Cunning is what wins, not the first to mikes or leos

	16-11-2000 17:57									#30
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Xin has posted (about four times) his cunning stunt to utilise any number of Settlers/Engineers on a single square - this would allow two turn railroads through mountains - two turns because the guys have to get there on the first turn and then railroad on the next - leaving a window of opportunity for the defenders to counter ...


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven