30-07-2001 01:25									#1
	Spain and Al-Andalus Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's a part of bigger question. But I'll ask about it anyway;
why Spaniards consider themselves descendants of Al-Andalus
and treat it as their tradition? Al-Andalus always fought
with the Spaniards, right? It had other language, other
religion, other culture, it was separate from christian
Spaniards. You'd say that Spaniards were influenced by
Al-Andalus. Mudejar style and so on. But does it make any
difference? Have Romans (I mean the early empire, not Byzantium),
that conquered Greece and were under its heavy cultural influence,
becomen by this its descendant? You would say that Arabic Syria
or Egypt (Iraq etc) are descendants of pre-moslem Syria and Egypt
and so on; but none of those countries was banning former citizens
of those regions, the Christian and Moslem citizens of those states
were never fighting each other, those states were never divided into
a Christian and a Moslem part (Outremer states weren't origin states)
and Spain did; the true descendant of Al-Andalus are the African states
that welcomed the fleeding. Spain, as the one that destroyed this culture,
can't regard itself as it's continuation in any BIGGER part.

	30-07-2001 01:49									#2
	Re: Spain and Al-Andalus Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Heresson It's a part of bigger question. But I'll ask about it anyway; why Spaniards consider themselves descendants of Al-Andalus and treat it as their tradition?

Do they? Oh my! Where have I been all those years?

quote: Al-Andalus always fought with the Spaniards, right?

Wrong. Al-Andalus fought against the Christians. The Al-Andalusi were as Spanish as the Castilians, the Aragonese or the Navarres

quote: It had other language, other religion, other culture, it was separate from christian Spaniards. You'd say that Spaniards were influenced by Al-Andalus. Mudejar style and so on. But does it make any difference?

It may be only me but I think that does make a HUGE difference. For example, bullfighting, guitar, flamenco... some of the things that make Spain nowadays so identifiable were, in all or in part, taken from the Arabs. Oh, and the Spanish language is heavily (heavily, heavily) influenced by the Arabic.

quote: Have Romans (I mean the early empire, not Byzantium), that conquered Greece and were under its heavy cultural influence, becomen by this its descendant?

It may be only me again but, I'd say yes of course. Without BOTH Greece and Rome there would not have been Spain at all (not the way we know it today).

quote: the true descendant of Al-Andalus are the African states that welcomed the fleeding. Spain, as the one that destroyed this culture, can't regard itself as it's continuation in any BIGGER part.

Mixing apples and oranges. Your premise has been wrong from the beginning. Spain (whatever that may mean here) has never claimed to be the continuation of Al-Andalus. That modern Spain, particularly from Toledo to Gibraltar is heavily influenced by Al-Andalus is so obvious that needs no comment.


(PS. Nice troll, Maciej, I enjoyed it )

	30-07-2001 02:05									#3
	Re: Spain and Al-Andalus Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Heresson why Spaniards consider themselves descendants of Al-Andalus and treat it as their tradition?

Do we? I'm from Andalusia and I consider myself descendant of Northern spaniards, probably some muslin blood runs through my veins, 700 years are too many years.

quote: Originally posted by Heresson It had other language, other religion, other culture, it was separate from christian Spaniards.

Only Latin has a stronger influence in our language than Arab. IMHO this arab influence is what makes us different from french, italian, etc.

	30-07-2001 03:41									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Do they? Oh my! Where have I been all those years?

In USA?

Do we?

Don't You?
Haven't You made your Spanish scenarios about it,
Jesus? You could say that it is just a part of history of
Christian states. But then the scenario wouldn't be named "Al-Andalus";
it's like i would make a scenario about X_X-century Poland and would name it
"russia and germany" then
I could sence pride of Al-Andalus' achievements
in your texts, too.

Anyway, You say yourself;

The Al-Andalusi were as Spanish as
the Castilians, the Aragonese or the Navarres

While I think they weren't.
that's what the thread is about.

700 years are too many years.

if so, You shouldn't feel descendant of anything that old

It may be only me but I think that does make a HUGE difference. For example,
bullfighting, guitar, flamenco... some of the things that make Spain nowadays so
identifiable were, in all or in part, taken from the Arabs. Oh, and the Spanish
language is heavily (heavily, heavily) influenced by the Arabic.

And what? What identified Poles against some was Oriental influence.
that we were using Turkish weapons and wearing Turkish suits, and
so on. Does it mean that Poles are descendants of Turkish tradition?
We were also under Ukrainian and Byelorussian influence. in fact,
almost all Polish greatest poethes, artists, scientists came from
the lands that now aren't Poland anymore, and had some Byelorussian/
Ukrainian/Jewish/German roots.
One renown guy even said that Poland is Vilnius, Miñsk, Kiev, Lwów.
And Warsaw? "A silly Jewish town on the German border".
Does it mean that we are descendants of all Eastern Slavic culture?
Or Jewish? Or German?

It may be only me again but, I'd say yes of course. Without BOTH Greece and Rome
there would not have been Spain at all (not the way we know it today).

As any other state/nation

Spain (whatever that may mean here) has never claimed to be the
continuation of Al-Andalus.

I don't say that. It's obvious that some Isabela didn't want to
be descendants of Andalus. But don't You consider Al-Andalus
a part of your history rather than foreign agressor?

PS. Nice troll, Maciej, I enjoyed it

Yes? So there'll be no more of stuff like this

	30-07-2001 04:32									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson The Al-Andalusi were as Spanish as the Castilians, the Aragonese or the Navarres While I think they weren't. that's what the thread is about.

If this is what the thread is about there's something quite important to know:

Before 1492 Hispania was only a geographical concept. Even portuguese considere themselves spanish but after Isabella & Ferdinand Spain became the name of a country what resulted in a portuguese claim to the Pope (no need to say they didn't consider themselves spanish anymore).

quote: Originally posted by Heresson 700 years are too many years. You shouldn't feel descendant of anything that old

I don't.
500 christian years have passed after 700 muslin years:

711 AD Muslins disembark in Hispania
1492 AD Granada taken by I&F
-------
781 years

1492 Spain as a country
2001 today
-------
509 years

quote: Originally posted by Heresson But don't You consider Al-Andalus a part of your history rather than foreign agressor?

That's exactly what we think about it, a part of our history to be prod of and to remind us that there's still something from Al Andalus inside of us.

	31-07-2001 01:15									#6
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Before 1492 Hispania was only a geographical concept. Even portuguese
considere themselves spanish but after Isabella & Ferdinand Spain became the
name of a country what resulted in a portuguese claim to the Pope (no need to say
they didn't consider themselves spanish anymore).

I'm not talking about Spani****y in the meaning of those times

500 christian years have passed after 700 muslin years:

No. From the very beginning of the Moslem times, there used to
exist some Christian states too. After 1492...

That's exactly what we think about it, a part of our history to be prod of and to
remind us that there's still something from Al Andalus inside of us.

that's what I mean by Spani****y.
In my opinion, You should treat Al-Andalus as foreign opression

	31-07-2001 01:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson No. From the very beginning of the Moslem times, there used to exist some Christian states too. After 1492...

Yes, I'm andalusian, remember?

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Spani****y

Clarify the asteriks, I suspect you're running out of arguments

	31-07-2001 01:35									#8
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really Sorry

now I undertand what u mean: spanishness

	31-07-2001 01:43									#9
	Got spare money?

Anyway, imho it's not so important who opressed who when talking about cultural influences. Think of Alexander's empire, was it culturally greek or persian; ptolomeic culture: greek or egyptian? China invaded by Mongols

	31-07-2001 22:42									#10
	Re: Spain and Al-Andalus Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Heresson It's a part of bigger question. But I'll ask about it anyway;

Okay Maciej, your has not convinced us, sorry . But I must admit it was a nice try though

Now, let's move on to the other part of bigger question, if you do not mind, he, he...