18-04-2000 16:25									#31
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ADC - incremental rush buying for units can be done in sets of ten shields at 25 gold per set. i.e. to 'buy' a caravan, select warrior, buy for 50g (see note), select phalanx, buy for 25g, select archer/diplomat, buy for 25g, select legion/trireme, buy for 25g, select caravan, buy for 25g - 150g total
note - if you let one shield be built ordinarily so that you don not start with an empty box the first warrior costs < 25g.

Now - of course you can't do this once you have advanced to the point of having musketeers as you cheapest unit - the trick now becomes to initially select barracks, buy, change to musk and move on up - yes! even with the 50% switch penalty you do better buying a barracks first - please try it! (I learnt this one from Xin myself!)

Just for completeness, the bit at a time approach only works for units. However, if you must start with an empty box buy the barracks (warrior) first just to get some shields in the box then switch to the item you desire.

George trade if you do not use caravans for trade (as well) you are missing out in a big way - the extra trade from a trade route improves happiness and increases your science production - the initial gold bonus is matched by a (hidden) beaker bonus that can transform your science performance beyond recognition - do give it a try - you will truly be amazed.

Enjoy

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	18-04-2000 17:34									#32
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Aha! Scouse, you may have put your finger on my weakest spot...I must admit, that I don't trade until late in the game(if at all)mainly because it's such a bind!
First one has to go thro all that unciv-like rigmarole over supply/demand choice, then have to remember which caravan is bound for where, usually while the information boxes keep popping up on the screen, distracting one with news of all that's going on in the game - if I don't jot down details (using paper and pencil while at the computer? - gimme a break!), I'm apt to find my B.C. trading camels wandering aimlessly about in 2000. In short, trading in civ for me is no fun...and fun is wot I play civ for. Perhaps I should have suggested that Civ3 make trading simpler?
Thank you for your post,lah.

	19-04-2000 23:03									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

George - Trade - Trade - Trade!
I agree that the way the trade is configured can be confusing - but it is the key to winning.
Trading might not seem much fun at first - but it's far better than losing.
Playing in Fundy you can keep your science rate at a very respectable level with consistent caravan deliveries.
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SG (2)

	23-04-2000 01:46									#34
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George, what I do is run a small word processor (BBEdit on the Mac, you could even use that simple Notepad thing for Windows) as well as CIV, and when I build a caravan/frieght I put an entry in there like

Coal/Athens to Newcastle

whatever my plans are. Then when I'm moving I just flip between applications to check up on where they're going. Of course you have to keep checking and maybe updating if demands (or your plans) change. I also use it to keep a list of cities to check each turn while I'm running a "Love the leader" session to grow my cities.

Here's a weird thing I've seen, might be a bug - does this happen to anyone else? I start building a freight because the city shows it can supply something good (like gold or oil), but when it's completed - food is the only option given. I know a city's supply and demand can change randomly, but can what it supplies go away? It's possible that a freight from another city arrived in the meanwhile, but that shouldn't cause this.

PS The rumor that the Dino game was named after me is not true.

	23-04-2000 07:20									#35
	Got spare money?

Dino I think that if the AI sends your city a caravan, and supplies something that your city demands, in return, the AI also selects one of your commodities to set up a "return trip" trade route. In other words, the trade route goes both ways, they bring you coal, and take your oil back to the originating city. They get trade arrows, and your city now also gets trade arrows. You get the per turn trade arrows, but not the gold bonus or the beaker science bonus, since it was not your caravan. I could be wrong, but I think that's the way it goes. Keep on civin'.

	23-04-2000 08:19									#36
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How about this one? For an extremely long time, in this game I'm presently playing (against the AI), I had one city both supplying and demanding oil.

Just to be on the safe side, I never chose oil, but I imagine that this could conceivably have led to a trade route between this city and itself.

Anybody ever seen anything like that, and does anybody know why it happens?

Jim W

	23-04-2000 16:47									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

OK, can't resist adding my tidbits...for what they're worth:
A>> camel uses; lots of good points made above (except that wasteful build, move, disband=dumb, sorry, but it is).
a1> Trade IS wonderful & IS 1 of most important aspects of this game of BUILDING empires.
a2> Another good use while waiting their turn to throw themselves into a wonder (or anytime for that matter) is as "LP's" (Listening Posts to U non-vets). Place them at key points of possible enemy approach in sleep mode, ie; mountain passes, coastal squares at entrance to bays, etc. If an enemy passes by, U R alerted to them & perhaps will still be able to see what it is at end of his turn.
They don't cause or help unhappiness + don't cost anything to maintain = can leave'm there as long as U want.
Also they are "immune" to being bribed & used against U (i mean face it, what's going to do? Bribe your caravan@great cost & attack U with a trade route?)
a3> Don't always use / make'm FOOD caravans. I'v found that if U have wisely selected a city's commodities for your initial trading routes & used up the valuable 1's (gold, gems, silver, etc). Then end up with only cheapies or worse yet, only supply choice left is no longer demanded by anyone (salt, hides, beads). Select THAT useless commodity instead of FOOD & use it for the above purposes. Your city (tho not necessarily immediately) will get a new, valuable commodity (coal, urainum) to use for a very lucrative future trade route! \

=========================================

B>> This never-ending, movement-by-"ship" complaining... PLEASE grasp the game fact that "ships" are a CONCEPT, NOT actual, individual vessels. As pointed out elsewhere in the gripe about "it takes forever for a ship to cross an ocean"(the polar opposite of the complaint herein), this the only way the designers could reasonable & effectively provide for ocean transporting of units. Think about.
B1> Is there any ship that has ever existed that could transport 2 complete divisions, corps, armies (whatever size U want to assign to a Civ unit)?
Naval units = a FLEET of vessels going back & forth during a given time frame to move entire units; but how could U show that on a grand strategy scale... dozens of little icons surrying back & forth while everyone is taking their turns?
b2> If U can grasp that, then the "unrealistic" "cheat" of "chaining" ships fades away. It simply represents as best it can in this game, the building & applying FLEETS of vessels to the task of rapidly moving large #'s of units / caravans. Ala; the convoys of WWII, the Spanish armada, movements of all large forces or supplies across water throughout history.
b3> It's like so many other things in this GRAND STRATEGY game... the units are CONCEPTUAL representations of what is / can take place. In general, whether it is caravans or ships, the more time & resources U spend, it only stands to reason... the faster the job gets done.

Make sense? Now play on...


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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited April 23, 2000).]

	24-04-2000 17:27									#39
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Venger, I agree the food caravan trick is a cheat/bug. I have never used that trick in MP games. (or against the computer anymore)

But again, another reason why it's good to discuss before a MP game what is legal, and what isn't. There is still major differences of opinions on what is legal or not.

Against the computer, it really doesn't matter. You are playing for fun. Since no one really seems to be playing to beat records and have them posted, how you play against the computer is a personal matter.
If you want to cheat... fine. As long as you having fun, who really cares.
Now, MP is a different matter

	29-04-2000 01:37									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

"quite a few turns" indeed - I once saw a barb trireme go back and forth between the same 2 squares for over 100 turns before finally sailing away.

	30-04-2000 09:17									#42
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How's this for a bug?

After reading this thread, I decided to try out the food caravans (I'd only used them for wonders before). The carevans worked as advertised, until I decided the time came to get rid of the food routes.

When I tried establishing a third trade route, it would displace one of the earlier two--the food route wouldn't budge. I checked the manual, which assured me that if a city ran out of food, the route would cancel automatically. So, I took all the workers off food producing squares, and let the stores drain to zero (I have democracy blessed with perpetual WLT*Ds, so I wasn't worried).

The first two cities worked as advertised. The next one started disbanding engineers instead ; I re-supported the engineers to other cities, and tried again--The route died this time. Every other city with a food route (five, all to my Capital/Science City) has defied all efforts to dislodge the route. They lose population instead!

I now produce nothing but trade caravans from those cities...but have given up on 'starving them out'.

Anybody seen anything similar?

	05-05-2000 04:16									#43
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This was my exact problem!!!

Never thought about trying to starve them out tho... What I ended up doing [in a SP game] was building a food caravan every turn... [it was over 20 population] and sending them off around the globe.

One thing I didn't pay attention too [game now finished] was once I established a different food route, did it change the +1 food to the new towns?!

This made my population really grow with the help of granaries in Fundy.

And I agree that this is one way to keep up with the WLT?D in Demo and Rep. But, again, it is something to agree before a game begins...

So many decisions, so little time to play,
Eddy

	20-11-2000 00:48									#44
	Got spare money?

I ran into a different bug with food routes. I was using the initial food caravan bonus to grow a SSC in Monarchy, and didn't really care about the continuing routes. So I was making trade routes from cities that had zero food surplus. I figured that the hunger would eventually cancel the food routes, leaving the real trade routes open.

The humger emptied the food box and I got the "famine feared" message but then nothing happened! The food box was empty, the food routes were still there and the population never fell. Despite the 1 hunger, the food route was never cancelled and the population never fell. This was very odd.

I have MGE 1.3

	24-11-2000 11:35									#45
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make the pyramids then make food routes. if you have a granary in the city it fills your food everyturn you move one to it. in 2x2x you can really rack up the food if you build a city on a forest and get two other peeps on forest, and one on grass. three to four cities connected to major cities with roads can boost your pop real quick. oh yeah dont forget to do a little rush buy at 20 and 40 prod

Moker