11-04-2000 01:55									#1
	Food Caravans...? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Some people that I have spoken too have denounced the use of food caravans as cheating.

What use would that be?! Tell me again.

I used it in a SP game, and thought it could be useful in a MP game...

What uses for a food caravan except to fill the granaries?!

One other question if this is kosher, is once a food trade route is established how do you get rid of it? I've tried making new ones but I can't get rid of it!! Doh!

Its probably a question asked alot and I have made an effort to backtrack through the volumes of backdated messages but there are tons of em! You people do message alot!

Eddy

ps, who would want to disable smiles?!?

	11-04-2000 04:20									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, i think some people consider using food caravans to rush-build wonders is a cheat, but hey, the game designers OBVIOUSLY had this intended (since it's a friggin option on the menu!).

If you want to cancel a food route, the best way i have seen is just send a food caravan from a different city to the one you are trying to cancel the route in. The +1 food will cancel the -1.

And as for other uses.... build tons of food caravans, store them all in a city, and when you want to build a wonder, have them all move out, and then back into the city and you can rush build the wonder in one turn!

	11-04-2000 05:06									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

food caravans are not a cheat.They provide a way to counter "we love" days of Republic and Democracy.The trade route penalty is evidence of this.It is covered in the manual.Especially using them for wonders.

if the sending city runs out of food the food "trade" route will be canceled

	11-04-2000 05:45									#4
	Got spare money?

To cancel food traderoutes, establish regular traderoutes.
Only the third traderoute from the supplying city will cancel the food traderoute. For the receiving city it doesn't matter.

But what's that about food caravans being a cheat? That's probably the most ridiculous thing i've ever ... ogh, next thing you know someone is going to claim building cities on mountain hexes is a cheat too

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	12-04-2000 04:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Erh, hm...

Food caravans per se is not a cheat, how can they be? Using them for wonder building or disbanding purposes is no different than using commodity caravans!

It's the food caravan trick that some people (your's truly included) consider a cheat.

Carolus

	12-04-2000 17:30									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So let me get this straight. Their secondary use is ok, but using them for what they were designed for is cheating?

RAH
Even the Ferrets can't make sense of this one.

	12-04-2000 17:54									#7
	Got spare money?

ROTFLMAO...
I agree with the ferrets

	12-04-2000 23:17									#8
	Tired of ads?

To the Lord of the Ferrets (and relatives!)...

Was growing cities one pop a turn using food caravans intended by the designers? I wasn't referring to adding one food per turn, obviously that's not a cheat!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited April 12, 2000).]

	12-04-2000 23:30									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes it was.read the manual.

	12-04-2000 23:36									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

YEAH... read the manual... Still ROTFLMAO...

	13-04-2000 00:00									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You can think of a caravan that is disbanded to build wonders as an EMPTY one, regardless what you initially choose to carry. The 50 shields you get is just the value of the camel meat butchered for the dogs.

	13-04-2000 08:41									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Using food caravans to build Wonders is perfectly legitimate!

(1) They cost the same to build as any other caravan. Since they really represent a city-to-city transfer of shield resources, their contribution to the Wonder should be the same.

(2) Unlike, say, ship-chaining, it still makes sense within the context of the game (important criteria). Major shipments of food into a city could certainly allow for a larger workforce to concentrate on building the Wonder at hand.

	13-04-2000 23:07									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ming, does this mean that 8.3) in the cheat list should be deleted?

Now I'm really confused...

Carolus

	13-04-2000 23:57									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

No... it is still a cheat the way I suggest using it. I don't think the designers had any clue that you would keep sending food caravans to a city from THE SAME CITY! By doing the same city to same city, only ONE food route is charged against the originating city... allowing you to send as many as you want, growing the city to super size while only having a minus 1 food from the supplying city. Now, that's a cheat... (I think )

	14-04-2000 03:48									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

So Ming, to use the food caravan just to one city is allowed, but more than once is not because it stays at -1 no matter how many times you send in a food caravan.

So, if I establish a food caravan to a city, then get another city to cancel that route by forming another, can I not then re-establish another food trade route?

....and so on? Is that cheating.... and then who would know if that was done... and not the other way?!

Eddy

	14-04-2000 05:19									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ming, Eddy
In case you didn't know; a foodroute from one city to another gets cancelled by establishing regular traderoutes. You'll need three functioning regular traderoutes from the supplying city. The third will cancel it.
It is possible to establish several foodroutes to one city from several others. This way you can grow a city to an extremely large size for whatever purpose(s) you might have and it will be able to sustain its size.
Concerning if the use of foodcaravans to grow a city is a cheat, i don't think so. I imagine the caravan brings to the city large amounts of food, which attracts immigrants and stimulates the locals to 'breed' a little more intense because there's security of food for the newborns. Imagine the supplying city pooling its resources for those few or that one turn to intensify their local foodproduction and process it so as to ship it to the receiving city. It makes perfect sense to me.

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	14-04-2000 11:39									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sorry, folks, I'm confused again.

Now, the "food caravan trick" consists of making a food caravan, sending it out of the city,, then back in, producing a trade food loop for one city?

On the other hand, I've been doing a lot of building of units, buildings, and so on, by sending out a food caravan from one city to another, then disbanding it on arrival. This I take to be the ewuivalent of transferring resoources from one city to another in order to build things, and I sure hope nobody is going to tell me it's a cheat.

Last thing, what is "ship-chaining?" I don't think I've ever done it, but just to make sure...

Thanks,

Jim W

	14-04-2000 14:22									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Jim
you need not be confused;

quote: making a food caravan, sending it out of the city, then back in, producing a trade food loop for one city?

that is not a cheat, in fact it is impossible. If the foodcaravan enters its homecity nothing happens.
About your 'production-transport', i don't think that's a cheat either, although i wouldn't recommend doing it. A caravan/freight costs 50 shields. If you disband it to speed up production for anything besides a wonder, you'll lose 25 shields and gain 25 for production. Not really efficient i would say
But here's an off-topic tip from me 2u i use for rush-building. For example i need armor (80 shields)in one turn, but the producing city has a production of no more than 50. This means the city would take two turns to build the armor and 'lose' 20 shields too. What i do is i deduct the city's production from the required shields and 'buy' the rest. In this case i bought a diplomat of 30 shields and changed production to armor. The city will now produce the armor in one turn with minimum loss of shields. You can also rush-build improvements this way. Just make sure you don't change the type of what you're building. When rush-building units, buy units and the same goes for improvements.

------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	14-04-2000 17:21									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Let's try explaining the food caravan trick one more time.

The basic form:
City A is the city you want to grow.
City B is the city supplying the caravans.

Send a food caravan from city B to A.
The first caravan fills the food box for city A.
Rush build food caravan in city B.
Next turn, send another food caravan from city B to A. This will add a population to city A.
Repeat until you get bored.
Every two turns, city A will grow by one population. You can get cities over 100 pop this way.

City B will only show a minus one to it's food, even if it sends 50 caravans to city A.
As long as it keeps sending them to the SAME city.

You can use half your cities to make the other half grow over 100.

Xin Yu came up with a trick where you rotate how you are sending the caravans so you can grow all you cities at the same time. It made my head hurt thinking about it, and was even more tedious.

	14-04-2000 22:13									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

But what is ship-chaining? The term itself doesn't seem to tell me anything.

Jim W

	14-04-2000 23:14									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

When you transport a unit on a ship and the ship ends its turn in a square where an other ship is waiting you can wake up the unit. When you move the second ship it will transport your unit. You can use this to transport units over unlimited distance.

	16-04-2000 02:51									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ming,

I see your point about many food caravans from one city to another making the city grow 1 population point every 2 turns.

Do we not consider WLTC days in Demo and Rep, 1 population point every 1 turn a cheat?

My point being, if your in Fundy and you want your population to grow as good as in Demo and Rep, this is the only way!

If someone wishes to spend tons of resources on food caravans and not on building other units or wonders or something, isn't that just a different strategy?

Eddy
[Thumbs up for Food Caravans!]

	17-04-2000 09:00									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Praise be to Ming, and others, for their tips on growing cities, via caravans, and ship-chaining.

Speaking for myself, the only "cheat" is when one toggles the "cheat" switch...and I've no quarrel with any who do this - as far as I'm concerned, anything else is innovation, or tried and true traditional tactics.
While my caravans are hanging about, waiting for their Wonder ("Trade...? - wot's dat?"), I like to put'em to work, wandering about, as cheap explorers, tearing aside the blacknes to find all them huts, that I'll subsequently fail to investigate. Or else I'll stow them in Cities other than the Science one for which they're ultimately bound,in the hope that, fortified,they can help the local garrison stave off attacks - they do have a defence factor, after all - has anybody tried defending a city -er- manned entirely by fortified camels? It seems to me, entirely possibe, if enough are stuffed into the city to get a defence factor of umpteen...and how do these "military units" affect the happiness of the local citzenry?...Whatever, an amusing concept.

	17-04-2000 05:48									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My camels once stopped a barb invasion. A new city was started near another which was accumulating caravans for a wonder. A barb ship appeard next to the defenseless city, so I blocked the landing areas with camels. The barb ship just stayed there until I could build a defense and remove the camels. Early on(and later also, I think), the barbs do not have an amphibious capability.

	17-04-2000 16:34									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I do the same thing with any units available (if I can spare them), especially if it's a vulnerable city.

Problem is, the damn ship never leaves!

Carolus

	18-04-2000 09:17									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

George G

Units with an attack strength of 0 do not help with happiness. (camels, transports and spies)

No matter how many you stack, they defend one at a time. But better camels than nothing!

	18-04-2000 06:24									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Man i thought i was losing my mind looking at the two posts above... Feb 2000... Mar 2000.... Feb 2000.... Mar 2000.... The Mad.... The Mad.... VIKING AND MONK! DUH!!!! Okay sorry just thought i would share my idiocy with others.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

	18-04-2000 07:05									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Viking, NOTHING helps with my happiness, my cities are ever in turmoil, no matter what I do for 'em, wise and humane ruler tho I be...
I throw temples, colleseums, cathedrals,etc at the problem but that moody mob of municipalities is ever on my mind... wouldn't have it any other way tho - gives a unique twist to the great game...thanks for your input.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 17, 2000).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 17, 2000).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 17, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited April 17, 2000).]