26-11-2000 17:56									#1
	Spy Warfare Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I tried recently another kind of conquest in SP. My plan was to do buy off enemy cities instead of crushing the enemys military. But I noticed, that its kinda expensive. Size-12-cities without any WoWs, about ten improvements cost about 1500 gold. pretty much for my civ consisting of only eight really big cities (size 20+). My question to the pros: How do handle Spy Warfare? Do you poison the water and destroy improvements until the cities get cheaper?
Wouldn't it be more effective to rushbuy units and production improvements in your cities in order to smack the AI the old-fashioned way? Does your government have any influence on the cost of a revolt in a AI city?
[This message has been edited by Chainsaw (edited November 26, 2000).]

	26-11-2000 18:36									#2
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Some key points for me when I play the bribe game in single player:

• Work up your treasury by building trade improvements (Marketplaces, Banks, Stock Exchanges, Superhighways)
• Extract tribute and gifts on a large scale. Manoeuvre your units and your diplomatic connections with other civs accordingly
• Set up trade routes between continents to generate funds
• Try to take the AI's capital before bribing the remaining cities
• Go for cities "at all costs" when they're in disorder
• When at all possible, use Spies and Vet Spies instead of Diplos
• Keep an eye on cities where AI units occur right next to the city. While the city may seem costly to bribe, the additional units gained could make it a much better deal than neighbouring cities with all the units inside
• Always ask for tribute/gifts first from the AI whose city you're about to bribe on the same turn
• Use your knowledge of where the Wonders are located when choosing which cities to go for first. Wonders do not increase the cost of bribing a city
• Check for courthouses in the city before bribing
• Attempt to bribe the city from a tile that's farthest away from the AI capital

Those are some of the points, anyway. Bribing is one of my favourite aspects of the game and it's a very effective way of expanding when you're playing under a representative government.

Edit: It can often be worth it to really stretch your resources to get a couple of extra cities from an AI. Each time you take a city, the plunder is transfered to your coffers, and more importantly, the AI loses resources to generate trade and keep his treasury intact. Eventually, you'll reach the point of no return when the cost of bribe will drop dramatically - because of the previous bribes. Love it.
[This message has been edited by Legman (edited November 26, 2000).]

	26-11-2000 20:32									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Thanks a lot! That will certainly help. Are you sure about the wonders? How can I demand tribute being in democracy? Do improvements raise the price, or is it just the courthouse?

	26-11-2000 21:09									#4
	Remove this text

Chainsaw,
Yes, I'm (nearly) sure that Wonders do not increase the bribe cost. I haven't tested it or seen it tested, but I've certainly never seen anything to indicate that they would affect the cost.

One cannot extract tribute when in a Democracy (or in a Republic for that matter), but the key is to extract it as much as you possibly can while you're in Despotism and Monarchy. Having units stationed on the rivals' continent will make them much more willing to cough up, and there are several other tricks on tribute, just try searching a bit round the forum.

While in Republic or Democracy, you have to rely on alliances to get gifts of gold from your allies. This can be very rewarding, especially if you try to stay on good terms with them by gifting techs in return. At the same time, not being number one on the powergraph (supreme) will ease the gifts even more. If you're ever in Anarchy for some reason, be sure to take the opportunity to demand tribute from non-allies on every turn.

I believe improvements within a city aren't connected to the bribe cost, but I'm not sure about this. The main factors are the AI's treasury, city population and distance from the capital, this much I know. If improvements affect the cost, I'd presume it is on a very modest scale only. The one exception to this is of course the Courthouse improvement, like you said.

There are just so many intricacies when it comes to bribing - and the fundraising that'll allow it. I guess that's what makes it so fun, like with any other aspects/approaches in this game.
[This message has been edited by Legman (edited November 26, 2000).]

	26-11-2000 23:32									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If you want to continue demanding tribute and take advantage of a representative government, SOL is the key. Every once in a while, just revolt out of Democracy or Republic at the end of your turn before hitting end of turn, demand tribute from everybody, and then choose Democracy or Republic at the start of your next turn. Yes, you lose a turn of science and money, but the money aquired through tribute can make up for it. If you have embassies with civs, just do it every ten turns or so once you see the civs have enough money to give you to make it worth it.
If you don't have SOL, just do it in the years from Odeo's famous change government chart.

	27-11-2000 00:45									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I love bribing. Smaller empires (~10 cities) are nice, as you can usually get all their cities (excluding the capital of course) under your control.

Question about demanding tribute, does posturing your military in theatening ways help there?

	27-11-2000 03:34									#7
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After your spy has investigated the city, you can usually work out which improvements you need to destroy to make the bribe price cheaper. First to go are Courthouses, then Temples or if necessary Colesseums. In the next couple of turns the place should fall into disorder - so buy at bargain prices. This works best in Communism as your new spies are vets and have a better success rate.

If not in that form of government, you need to train a few spies up to vet status - they buy cheaper than "green" spies. To do this it is advisable to send the spy into the city to sabotage - but let her "use her judgement" - don't select the target. This way she is more likely to be come back a vet.

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SG (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited November 26, 2000).]

	28-11-2000 08:13									#8
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Build a ton of spies. While doing that build a city (well protected would be best) near the target civ. Take all your spies and start to poison water supply. Many spies will survive (returning to the nearest city many times a vet if not already). Wipe out a civ in a few turns (even big cities). It's kinda boring but works well against a bigger, stronger, better armed civ and it's cheaper than bribing. Spies are cheap.

but hey, who has not tried this already.

	28-11-2000 09:30									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

>BUt hey, who has not tried this already?

::Waves:: I Haven't! I use spies as specialists, if the AI builds city walls, I build up lots of diplomats, and bribe cities(Usually, early in the game I don't have the money needed for a large scale bribery assault to work.

	28-11-2000 11:27									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Again, i say early warfare is good. Bribery is quite cheap if you are demanding tribute each turn

	28-11-2000 18:16									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Can you really "poison" a city to size zero? Wouldn't it be better to reduce its size to a level where its much cheaper to bribe?
I haven't nuch expirience with extended spy warfare. I have never used them in masses except for stealing techs if I needed to, for special destruction assaults or in the field (sabotage, intelligence). A "bribe game" never seemed that effective because of the high amuonts of money you have to pay, especially if the cities are bigger, and your civ doesn't generate much more than 1k - 2k of gold each round. I always relied on military. But now, I will have a try on this one.
Thanks for the help!

	28-11-2000 23:23									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I do not think you can bribe a city to size 0. Many months ago I posted about my attempt to do that in an OCC game where the ai had encroached on my city squares. No matter how many spies I sent in, it wouldn't disappear. I don't remember the details, but I think my experience was something like this: I'd send five or six spies in once it had been reduced to size 3, and it wouldn't go below size 2, and the next turn it would be back to 3. It worked like a charm, though reducing the city from it's original size 8 or 12 or something.

	29-11-2000 03:32									#13
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To set up a good spy army switch to communism with max taxes. Then build 40 or so vet spies. Switch to fundy. Wait a couple of turns. Bribe everything and everything. After you capture all of the AI's cities except for the capital use all of the bribed units and seize it. Then return to your regular game. If all of the cities are connected by rail it is much easier.

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	29-11-2000 13:36									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Wouldn't it be better to stay in democracy to make more money than in commie, and lose some of your non-vet spies instead? Has fundie any advantages in spy warfare except the possibility of rejecting peace offerings?

	29-11-2000 15:53									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

In Fundamentalism, all your tithes (luxuries) get converted into gold, thus making it easier to bribe AI cities once you've got the Vet Spies. And you can further max your tax income, since there's no unhappiness to worry about.

	30-11-2000 10:46									#16
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You can take their capital in a more traditional manner, and watch the prices fall.

Also if pinched for funds watch for the inevitable city revolt when prices are halved. You can encourage a city to revolt sometimes by placing a unit next to it on a trade square. Sometimes that is enough to make it revolt.
When you place a unit next to them sometimes a touchy Civ will change gvts in prep for war which can also put it into revolt. This can help you make a little headway while you build up for a decisive blow.
But hopefully your senate won't make peace with them in the process.