30-11-2000 09:45									#1
	Alliances Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hello!

Being the Pathetic-newbie-that-I-am. I have a question for ya'll smart people.

Ya see, I can(sometimes) ally with people. Now, I play MOO2 also, and in that game, Alliances are worthless, easily smashed and generally not a good idea if you want to stay out of war-with-everybody(because your "ally" will never help ya out)

I digress.

Anyway, this is my background for my thoughts on Civ:2 Alliances. Why ally with anybody? The few times I've done it, the other guy immediately demanded things, I refused...TA DA! I'm at war with him.

Now, up to this point we'd been sorta close(as far as civs can be. Meaning we weren't at each others throats every turn, ever since I nabbed one of his cities)

So....what's everybodies thoughts on Alliances?

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I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

	30-11-2000 11:27									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Pathetic newbies unite!

I'm with you, like2frolick; I can't see the worth of alliances. I know people here will answer by talking about the advantage of being able to demand tribute, and I've even made that work in my only OCC game; but in a regular game, they just seem like too much trouble, and aren't alliances at all but instead something liek the Hitler-Stalin Non-Agression Pact. You know the bastards are going to turn on you; why pretend? Plus, even when I give out gifts until I'm blue in the face, it seems nearly impossible (at higher levels, anyway) to get a strong civ to ally with me; weak civs are more eager, but they're the ones I want to conquor, not protect. No, George Washington said it best: make no entangling alliances!

Of course, if I knew what I was talking about I'd be playing at Diety by now...

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited November 30, 2000).]

	30-11-2000 11:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Playing SP against the AI with MPE - how's that for a clutch of acronyms? - renders the alliance option meaningless. For some reason, they programmed the AI to be madly aggressive towards the human player. Any alliance formed with the AI won't last more than a couple of turns. My theory with SP with MPE is - see an AI head, kick it, before they kick you.

Playing MP with other humans, however, is entirely different. Alliances, in that case, can be splendid things.

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	30-11-2000 12:31									#4
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Much of my learning about alliances comes from playing OCC (the One City Challenge), where it's crucial. However I reckon in normal SP play it would be beneficial for the same reasons:

1. Allies are a source of regular gold through gifts.

2. Allies allow the exchange, or even gifting, of techs you need. By giving them your techs if you are more advanced than they are (which is usually the case with humans much superior to the AI), it will also reduce the number of beakers required to research new techs.

3. Allies who are enthusiastic or worshipful (in 2.42) will gladly exchange maps with you easing your exploration efforts in the early game.

	30-11-2000 12:53									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I guess it depends on what game paremeters have been set.

2 players that can start working together early will quickly dominate any game unless a counter alliance is formed.Tech leapfrogging is the main thing here.There are many techniques that can be used.Gifting or trading units.Maps.Cities.Wonders.All this must be discussed pre-game as to what will be allowed and what won't.Otherwise the game will end with one side or the other feeling cheated.

Alliances also provide the funnest(imo) part of civ.Mainly,catching up to a civ that got out the blocks well.Coming from behind.Clawing your way back into contention together.That is a blast.You have a common enemy and must co-operate or perish.Thats true civ!

	30-11-2000 12:57									#6
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oops..I just saw this was intended for the smart people.My qualifications in this area are suspect.I leave with this gem from a truely smart person.

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The only thing that matters to me in a MP game is getting a good ally.Nothing else is as important.......Xin Yu

	30-11-2000 15:09									#7
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Posting after Smash doesn't mean I'm claiming to be a truly smart person . As Smash said, alliances can be game-breakers in multiplayer games. In a non-OCC single-player game, I don't see any point in alliances. You can get just as much out of the AIs by demanding tribute, and you don't have to be nice to them .

	01-12-2000 10:48									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm a dissenting voice on this. At first contact in the early turns a civ will often ally without making any demand. Thereafter the ally tells you when he makes an advance and that can trigger an exchange. He may also make gifts when he wouldn't pay tribute.

Later on, after you've expanded, a lot of civs will be too close to make an alliance practicable but there may well still be remote civs. If you're not going to attack them for a while why not be allied? You can certainly manipulate diplomacy with the aid of alliances. If your ally is at war with a neighbour and the time comes you want a causus belli you probably need do no more than speak to the ally. He tells you to attack the evil neighbour and you oblige. Gets round senate interference handily.

A drawback to allying with a near neighbour, for the perfectionist, is the licence it gives his settlers to wander all over your turf, sometimes disrupting your plans as to the location of cities.

And you can't seize use of an overlapped square from an ally.

But the opposite side to that coin is that if there is a civ located somewhere which you are not yet ready to overrun and which blocks access to territory into which you wish to expand you can seek an alliance so that your settlers can travel through their territory unconstrained by ZOC.

And maybe you want to establish a mountain eyrie or two inside an empire which will shortly go onto the hit list, to aid your military manoevres when you, shortly afterwards stab the erstwhile ally in the back.

An idea which works in SMAC is to get in touch with a small, remote faction and gift all your tech to it in the hope that it will attack and damage more powerful neighbours, drawing their military away from your own borders or just slowing them down. On one of my priodic returns to Civ2 I tried applying this idea but couldn't make it work. All that happened was that the gifted techs soon got into the hands of all my opponents.

No one would say that alliances are a big part of SP but IMO they have their uses.

No surprise at all to learn that they are a big part of MP.

	01-12-2000 06:19									#10
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I use alliances in SP (not MPE) a lot and have good results. $$ Sometimes neighbors, and sometimes non-neighbers. My latest tale - I'm allied with non-neighber Celts, expecting neighber French (Peace) to attack. Sure enough they sneak attack Celts come to my aid next turn they bribe 3 good-sized French cities, cutting French empire in half. French invasion doesn't last long.

	01-12-2000 06:57									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

DtD: That's some special ally with advanced diplo activity to boot.

My most spectacular display of alliance loyalty was the same declaration of war against the sneak attack by a farther away civ. It was in the end game and the neighbouring ally, the Chinese, sent their Partisans and Howitzers (!) to my OCC city pattern and sacrificed themselves saving my city from the French Cruisers and Fighters.

However I notice that there is a random factor involved with the declaration of war by an enthusiastic/worshipful ally (2.42) against a civ making the sneak attack. It doesn't happen in all cases.

	02-12-2000 10:56									#13
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Actually, man. In that game, Alliances, when they are used, are primarily what I use in one of two situations
#1)Somebody has gotten really, really strong, and I'm not close enough to get at them, and bring them down to size(usually, this is the Klackons) So I ally with the Nation between me and them and use the "ally" as defensive depth.

OR I make an Alliance in order to set up bases inside the oppositions Empire and prepare for a Blitzkrieg attack(I love Offensive Alliances, all I have to do is be Telepathic, and use my fleets to hunt down his fleet before he hits me, and then sail about taking his empire away. It's SO easy....

But, for there function, Alliances are useless. Yeah, the other empire sometimes joins in a war, but even when they do, the other races rarely are even vaguely good at war.

Which brings me back to topic. The AI is much better at war in Civ:2 than it is at MOO:2 (well, No they aren't, but Civ:2's AI is more obvious about its attacks, I guess)

Honestly, I don't see how you guys "Gain" anything from an Alliance in single player. If ya wanna talk MOO2, lets not do it on these boards.