01-08-2001 20:03									#1
	Wonders in Civ3 Remove this text

I know that they've split wonders up into major and minor ones, but I haven't heard much else. Are they keeping the same wonders, for the most part? Do they have the same effects? (Balanced, of course) Anyone have any thoughts?

EDIT: Spelling

	01-08-2001 20:13									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

What we know: The Civ2 wonders will be kept but some will have different effects. New ones will also be added.

The Great Wall will, instead of the old benefit, be a physical part of the map over which enemy attacks will be more difficult. The Great Canal is a new wonder which you can use to link two oceans with a passable canal. Another new wonder is The Internet, although they had not at the time of that article figured out what exactly it would be for.

Minor wonders that can be built by every civilization include the SDI defense and the Manhattan project.

	01-08-2001 20:17									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I've heard about the Great Wall and Canal, but what else?

SDI is a wonder now?

	01-08-2001 20:57									#4
	Suffering from ads?

Whoops. I meant "SETI". Sorry.

	01-08-2001 21:01									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Anyone care to speculate what the new wonders would be, we know of the internet and the great canal but what else deserves to be in?

	01-08-2001 21:15									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oh yes, SETI, I get it

If this turns into a speculation/whatif thread, is there ANY way at all I can remove my name from it? I hate those

	02-08-2001 11:24									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There is only suppose to be 12 major wonders, this should really put the race for getting a wonder on!

	02-08-2001 19:28									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I wanna screenshot of the Wonders that show up on the map, like the Great Wall and Grand Canal. Previews have mentioned that they actually get placed on the game map. I wanna see how my empire looks with the Great Wall defending my frontier. ANy ideas on what other Wondes might be visible on the map (ie Black helicopter roaming the map after building the UN? )

	02-08-2001 21:57									#9
	Remove this text

Asking about what I would like to see on screen, I have always wanted to see the Hanging Gardens spilling water next to one of my cities. Others of course would be:

The Pyramids
The Colossus
Space Program (Minor Wonder - See the Shuttle on Launch Pad)

That is all I can think of at this time, other suggestions?

	02-08-2001 22:09									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think it'd be cool to see pyramids and maybe other wonders on the map near the city that builds them.

Last edited by Sabre2th on 03-08-2001 at 10:58

	02-08-2001 22:41									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th I think it'd be cool to see pyramids on the map near the city that builds them. Considering the fact that you can see them from space......

Actually, you can't - the Great Wall is the only one human made structure visible from space.

But it would be nice if pyramids were visible on the map.

	02-08-2001 22:52									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Martinus Actually, you can't - the Great Wall is the only one human made structure visible from space. But it would be nice if pyramids were visible on the map.

Actually you can't.

There is no man made structure that can be seen from space. Have you ever looked at a picture of Earth from space, can you see the Great Wall?

No. Look it is impossible the wall is only like 25 feet high. If you could see it than you would be able to see every skyscrapper on the planet. You can't.

The rumor began when the Chinese built the wall. It was said that the gods could see it from space or some thing like that. Well may be the gods can, but us humans cannot.

Debunking one rumor at a time...

	02-08-2001 23:03									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by tniem Actually you can't. There is no man made structure that can be seen from space. Have you ever looked at a picture of Earth from space, can you see the Great Wall? No. Look it is impossible the wall is only like 25 feet high. If you could see it than you would be able to see every skyscrapper on the planet. You can't. The rumor began when the Chinese built the wall. It was said that the gods could see it from space or some thing like that. Well may be the gods can, but us humans cannot. Debunking one rumor at a time...

It is not about height (since from up there it doesn't really matter) but lenght.

	02-08-2001 23:09									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So if we take a 5000 km long cord and put it in one line across lets say, the US, it will be seen from space?

	03-08-2001 00:47									#15
	Civilization Vs City Full PM-box? Change here!

It would be nice, if you can see your wonders on the map. But I just had another idea:

In Civ I + II, wonders were created by a city. I think this is wrong. Because wonders like the Pyramids or the Great wall haven't been built by only ONE city. The whole civilization have done there part of work in order to build such a building! So I think wonders in Civilization III should be build by the civilization! If you start a project you have to spend your money on it, just as you have to spend your money on science. When you have spended enough money on it, the wonder is finished.

	03-08-2001 01:02									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Eli So if we take a 5000 km long cord and put it in one line across lets say, the US, it will be seen from space?

Thanks Eli, I didn't want to have to say it.


Eagle one, nice thought. I am pretty sure something like this made the List of suggestions. In a way though, you already do this by sending caravans to cities building a wonder. It is essential if you want to build wonders of importance in Deity level games.

	03-08-2001 01:16									#17
	Suffering from ads?

tniem

i have also heard that you can see the great wall from space, since not only is it long it is wide also...i'm fairly sure i saw pictures on the history channel of the great wall from space (right out of the shuttle window)

but besides that have caravans and frieght been confirmed in civ3? we know that setting up trade routes with them are out...so has firaxis said anywhere that they haven't completely gotten rid of them?

i am assuming they are in for wonder building...but we never can tell since they overhauled trade so much

	03-08-2001 01:17									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hey if the astronauts say they can see the Great Wall, I'll believe them.

	03-08-2001 01:28									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Let me just say that I decided to do a little research on this issue just to see if I was just blowing hot air. Anyways, first of all lets clarify 'see'.

I meant it as the unaided naked eye. If you mean taking pictures with satallites or something, yes of course you can see the wall. Heck, you could get a picture of someone's license plate on a Jeep if the latest tech is up in space.

For the unaided human eye, I thought that this quote from austronaut Alan Bean that was quoted in Tom Burnam's 1980 book 'More Misinformation,' which had a few pages devoted to debunking seeing the Great Wall in space was appropriate.

quote: "The only thing you can see from the moon is a beautiful sphere, mostly white (clouds), some blue (ocean), patches of yellow (deserts), and every once in a while some green vegetation. No man-made object is visible on this scale. In fact, when first leaving earth's orbit and only a few thousand miles away, no man-made object is visible at that point either."

I will rest my case on that...

	03-08-2001 01:41									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

The space shuttle doesn't leave earth's orbit.

Gravity on earth is 9.8 m/s2. Do you know what is on the shuttle where everyone is weightless? 9.0 m/s2 (or thereabouts). The shuttle orbits the earth at about 17,000 miles per hour, that's why everythings weightless, it's rotational speed balances gravity. If the shuttle were to stop orbiting, it would pull a Mir and do a swan dive back onto earth

	03-08-2001 07:59									#21
	Got spare money?

But tniem your quote proves too little -- all it says is that the great wall cannot be seen from the moon. Their is much "space" between the earth and the moon. Not a very strong point on which to rest one's case.

	03-08-2001 08:56									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Instead of asking you to reread the quote, I will just quote the last sentence which you apparently missed.

quote: In fact, when first leaving earth's orbit and only a few thousand miles away, no man-made object is visible at that point either.

	03-08-2001 08:59									#23
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Can't large conglomerations of Street Lighting (and therefore Cities) be see from Space when the surface of the Earth is in "night" (and when it is not cloudy, of course) ?

See also http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_092

"Any number of man-made structures can be seen from space, provided we construe "structure" to mean "anything built." Many of these are things that look like long, straight lines when seen from afar, such as highways, railroads, canals, and of course walls. If the orbit is low enough you can see even more. "

The trivial Pursuit game incorrectly suggests in one of its questions (in one of its editions) that "the only man-made structure on earth visible from outer space was the Great Wall of China" yet further spreading the misinformation.

I guess it also depends on what is meant by space

What can be seen by astronauts, with their naked eyes, in orbit around the Earth (185 to 643 kilometers, or 115 to 400 statute miles) is vastly different to what can be seen with the naked eye from the moon's surface, a quarter of a million miles away.

Perhaps it is only true that they can see the Great Wall if the Astronauts have been eating "Carrots" aka the RAAF pilots from WW2

(When trying to hide the fact that new-fangled RADAR was partly responsible for the higher than expected kill-rates of the RAAF, and in an attempt to hide it from the enemy, the British Government spread the story to the public that Carrots were regularly eaten by the pilots, which improved their night vision.)

	03-08-2001 11:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i think you guys are missing a large point. THIS IS A GAME! If you can see cities in the game then why not the hanging gardens? Even the smalleste city 100,000 people in civ 2 could be seen.So, i think seeing these thing would be a nice thing. maybe they could be in a square of the city and add luxury or science or something plus their normal effect. like the piramids could add arrows to that square it is in. That would be neat i think. but that is just me

	03-08-2001 12:02									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It is a known fact that the Great Wall is the only man made structure that can be seen from space.

	03-08-2001 12:52									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

not much...
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/radar/sircxsar/sc-gwall.gif

	03-08-2001 13:33									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Alex14 - "It is a known fact that the Great Wall is the only man made structure that can be seen from space."

Spare me from the world of "known facts" as opposed to actual truths.

"It is a known fact that man cannot survive speeds of more than 20 m.p.h"

"It is a known fact that there will never be a need for more than 5 computers in the world "
etc. etc. etc. ... ad nausem

Do an 'Aristotle' and have a look in the horse's mouth.

	03-08-2001 13:58									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

anyone have TOT? it would be dumb to have wonders shown on the spinning globe (which would be similar to all this space talk), but i dont see any reason why the wonders cant be visible on the main map, as long as they are not covering too much up. if they actually drew them good, the wonders could really spice up the game

	03-08-2001 14:54									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, I remember seeing some things on the screen shots. One of the screenshots from a video was of the Apollo Program, so that is obviously in the game in some form or other. Another thing I saw on a city view screenshot is the Pentagon. I wonder what this does...

And tniem, I have seen pictures of China from space and you can see the Great Wall. Not from the moon mind you. But from that distance, you would have difficulty making out even large islands like Madagascar or Sumatra.

Can you see cloud patterns on Jupiter? No. It depends on the distance. From a reasonably low orbit, you can see the Great Wall for space. But this is digressing.

It probably wouldn't be necessary for the pyramids to appear on the map because they aren't *that* big and wouldn't actually perform a function physically, eg, the great canal would allow shipping across some stretch of land, or the great wall would stop invaders.

	03-08-2001 14:57									#30
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Eli So if we take a 5000 km long cord and put it in one line across lets say, the US, it will be seen from space?

You have probably forgotten about width, haven't you?

Of the three dimensions, height is probably the least important, don't you think?