02-08-2001 14:09									#1
	No allies Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Is it possible to even have allies in the early midgame?

The only ally I made in my latest try was Dee...and that is only because she was the weakest on the power scale. That was kind of a shock since in most games I've had of late, Dee has been a real ass kicker. She had a lot of space on the landmass she was on, sperated by a vast expanse from her arch nemesis the Planet Cult. Still she managed to let Cha Dawn beat her! (There goes my ally....)

I was miffed. The Gaians should have been able to at least hold their own for awhile if not defeat or force a truce from Cha. They went out with hardly a whimper. Meanwhile EVERYONE ELSE declares vendetta on me! I haven't attacked anyone or done anything wrong. I wasn't even number one for most of the game and I'm only barely holding onto that title now. I tried to make nice by giving into demands, but some of them were too extreme. I refused to give Yang Nonlinear Mathematics for his stupid world map, so I knew he'd declare war sooner or later...plus I was a democracatic UoP . Morgan didn't even have the decency to call me, he and Cha joined forces against me in secret. And Lal....the jerk built a seabase right off of my coast so I had to mind control it. (I though "Total Thought Control" kept the other faction from getting peeved. Guess not. Lal declared vendetta, but we settled into a blood truce.) Miriam demanded Pre Sentient Algorithms from me before the HSA was built...and my denial made her declare vendetta too. (Kind of unfair. How come I can't say "I wouldn't want to see the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm fall into your hands" to the AI)

Maybe I'm just not amiable enough. But the other factions would ask for things that to me were unreasonable to avoid conflict. Giving Yang (or Miriam) your latest weapons tech is a recipe for disaster. Both of them will turn on you and with Miriams attack bonus its always good to keep her a few steps behind. Yang is as trustworthy as Snidely Whiplash. Demands for money are equally bad. The AI factions always ask for WAAAY too much. (Lal: "Pay me 675 energy credits."! 675? I can't remember the exact amount I had but I'm certain it was more than HALF! ) And worse, they ask for vital tech that will allow them to build an SP (and at higher levels the AI will not give you tech that will allow you to build an SP before them) Everyone at one point demanded Centuari Empathy knowing doggone well I was building the Empath Guild. These are things you have to refuse, and by refusing them you make the AI mad and thus I think its probably extremely difficult or impossible to have allies by the time the midgame comes around, unless you pact with someone against someone else. (and man, I have comments on that but I'll post it in another thread.)

D4

	02-08-2001 16:21									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Check my thread about forcing AI into pacts. Not submissive, but standard pacts.
The AI has to make the offer, and will only do so after his opinion of you improves (a LOT), which I cause by violating his borders with troops.
Once pacted, give your pactmate all your techs, and every time you get a tech, give it to him. That will increase the speed you get new techs at, and keep him totally loyal.
In my current, I'm Yang, and Lal is Pacted to me in the endgame, and we're running standard SE settings.
Indra

	02-08-2001 16:36									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'll have to look at the thread. Do you know how the AI weighs its opinion of you? For instance, if you give in to tech demands and money loans the AI likes you more, but what if you refuse to give in to a tech demand, but offer to sell the tech? Does that make you look better or worse to the AI? (I've been doing that a lot especially when the AI has only its "world map" to offer. Give me some cash, ya stupid dink. I couldn't care less about your map)

How about ceding bases? I've at times given bases to factions that were pacted with me or just factions that were really too weak to pose a threat and didn't offend (read: attack) me. Does the size and nature of the base make a difference? (Most times I'll give away a crappy base that I've taken from someone else.)

I guess I just get flustered because no other faction ever likes me, at least not for long. I can't figure out if its built into the game that way or if its my actions.

	02-08-2001 16:51									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I never wait to give techs. When you get a tech, call up every one of your allies and give it to them. If any of them give you a tech, call the others again and give them that one also.
That should keep them happy, and make them more effective allies.
Give low value bases to very small allies, to make cash off trade.
Especially valuable when you are president, and pass global trade.
Indra

	03-08-2001 00:26									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sometimes the AI is impossible to understand. Bribing them with tech can be a good way keep good relatioons and speed your way into the higher tech levels.

I just accept though that any AI nearby will be an enemy and must be destroyed.

	03-08-2001 01:53									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by cbn I just accept though that any AI nearby will be an enemy and must be destroyed.

I agree. They are an untrustworthy lot, and being generous with the technology can end very bad for me. Who wants to go up against chaos invaders? I have not often received the advantage of shared techs from Pact Brothers, since they find a reason to cancel the Pact once I haev given them what they need (and refused to join in on their idiotic, self-imposed vendettas)

	03-08-2001 02:44									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You would've thought that formula which counts AI moods to be relatively simple. But sometimes it just seems absurd to say at least.

In my current game as Free Drones only Lal is contempt with me because of my Democracy, mood's belligerent. Every other faction constantly ask for tech and cash, mood's seething. I've given up for most of their demands because my situations is just too bad for full scale war, especially with all powerful Santiago who landed just next to me, inhabitating Monsoon. Miriam decided to took the same continent as well and that's not a nice scenario.

Then again, in some games I get along with AI just fine, or better. Sometimes I actually start liking them , that's a bad sign of personalizing artificial intelligence.
I've had games with 4 pacts or more, and well after mid game. Usually though most of the factions just grow tired of you.

	10-12-2002 16:26									#8
	Tired of ads?

bumped^

	10-12-2002 19:13									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by EtheMind Sometimes I actually start liking them , that's a bad sign of personalizing artificial intelligence.

Yeah It's a problem huh. I do this too - especially with the Erratic factions. I often go off what they did to me in the last game, which is really not a good way to do things. You develop self-reinforcing concepts of faction leaders as evil SOBs when really fi you gave them a chance they could be half-decent...for about half a year. Dee and Lal I especially have this problem with - they are generally nice and fluffy in the early game and then become venom-spitting infidels in the mid- and late-game. Lovely people

	10-12-2002 20:57									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

d4everman,
What level were you playing at?

Ethemind,
Liking them ??? They more likely get language appropiate to a mule driver from me. Particularly the extortion content . I know, won't win any prizes for diplomacy, but it can get me into 5 vedettas before turn 100. ( No I don't win with this technique, but it does stay exciting till they start grinding away all my baes.)

Last edited by Kajak on 10-12-2002 at 21:04

	11-12-2002 05:43									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Come on - its not that hard to beat the lot of 'em. Its fairly easy to get a tech lead and onc ethat happens they start to hate you. Pure and simple. Grind them down and never give a submissive pack-mate any tech 'cos they will trade it away to your enemies and then stab you in the back.

Simple filosphy me..

	11-12-2002 12:24									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Taz never give a submissive pack-mate any tech 'cos they will trade it away to your enemies and then stab you in the back.

I have had it some time I had like fusion lasers or something and Miriam still had to put up with missile launchers. When I gave my pact mate (submissive zak) all my techs, I found Miriam a couple of turns later at my doorstep with fusion laser rovers ...

So from that game on I never give tech to submissives anymore.

	11-12-2002 13:19									#13
	Support Apolyton

Yes - its no fun suddenly being ttached by a apct mate at just the wrong time. Especially one you already stompped on.

	11-12-2002 16:56									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Submissives are such annoyingly indiscriminate tech traders - you have to make sure they enter any war you're fighting on exactly the year it starts, otherwise if you give them any new techs they get funnelled straight to your enemy. It's like having your own mini-rebellion to deal with.