02-08-2001 14:19									#1
	"Lets crush ******** while the time is right!" Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I didn't want to make my other comment any longer so I'll rant/ comment/ ask questions about this here:...

I know most alliances don't last, but how many folks actually agree to combine forces with another faction to crush someone else , even when the faction to be crushed has done you no harm or even had any contact with you?

I don't know for sure, but I think some AI's use it as a tactic to get you out of the way. Morgan a long time ago suckered me into going to war with Santiago "Lets crush her while the time is right" he says. Yeah, as soon as I agreed, Morgan signs a truce, later a treaty with the spartans, leaving me in a war with a superior military force.

In my latest endeavor Yang wanted me to join forces with him to crush Lal. Yeah, well, I was between him and Lal. I had to turn that one down. Lal would have been all over my outlying bases before I was ready.

I also avoid those kinds of alliances when I don't know where the other faction is. With good reason....I did so once, agreeing with Lal to stamp out the Believer menace early in a game only to discover that a gigantic Believer empire was right next to me! (and of course, being a weasel, Lal bailed on me) )

Nope, I don't think Pacts are all that hot unless you force someone into a submissive pact. Other wise they'll only turn on you or get you into hot water.

D4

	02-08-2001 16:14									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

I disagree.
If you give a pact all your techs, every time you get them, they stay pacted with you, and tend to give you all theirs also.
So, effectively speaking, they're a submissive, and a) thats one less enemy to beat on you, and b) it jacks up your research rate (by giving you new techs) and c) you get more commerce.
Indra

	02-08-2001 16:27									#3
	Support Apolyton

You may be right, Black Sunrise.

Maybe I'm too stingy with tech. But I prefer to have an advantage since the AI usually stabs me in the back. I can't think of any instance where I felt compelled to give someone all of my tech. (or a single faction I can imagine trusting enough to NOT use it against me)

	02-08-2001 16:31									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If you give them techs, and do so frequently, then they research stuff you need, for you.
Then again, I play a game where I try to stay ahead, research wise, and if you play a different sort of game, then that won't work.
Try a game where you get an ally, and try hard to keep him. SE choices matter a LOT less than gifts of tech, and gifts of tech are for your benefit anyway.
Indra

	02-08-2001 23:12									#5
	Re: "Lets crush ******** while the time is right!" Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by D4everman In my latest endeavor Yang wanted me to join forces with him to crush Lal. Yeah, well, I was between him and Lal. I had to turn that one down. Lal would have been all over my outlying bases before I was ready.

This is actually a great situation. If you are in a pact and you are between your pact bro and his enemy he will fork over tons of guys in order "help defend against a mutual enemy". Now just take the best guys and use them to defend your outlying bases and disband the rest in your core bases to hurry infrastructure. Your pact brother will remain weak since he is making nothing but units and your opponent is wasting all his energy trowing units away against very well defended bases. The only caveat is to make sure you dont have guys disbanded because of a lack of support since all the units gifted over will be supported from the base closest to you ally.

-Nadexander

	03-08-2001 00:19									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

For me its simple-- I war with a faction when its good for me and no amount of whining from an ally will change my mind. Generally in SP I try not to war with any faction until I have them infiltrated and can see if it is beneficial. If my 2 base pactmate wants me to attack a 20 base empire, my response is just go away.

	03-08-2001 02:05									#7
	Got spare money?

There haev been times where I did the Pact/ declare faction to keep from getting attacked. See, Sven was cruising around my borders and getting unfriendly. I knew he was big. He offered me a Pact if I attacked Lal. I knew Lal wasn't too close so it felt like the right move. It kept Sven off my back for about 50 years, long enough to develop my own sea power.

By the time I found Lal, he was already in vendetta with everyone else and no threat whatsoever. Happy times.

	03-08-2001 04:11									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What Nadexander said. What Black Sunrise said.

It's one of the things about Smac diplomacy that works: If you only half-heartedly support a pactmate, your relationship is going to be unpredictable. If you ignore them, they'll be mad, and if you give them gifts at some sort of regular pace, they'll pretty much be yours, just played by the AI with all the AI bonuses to tech etc. (on the higher levels).

Couple notes. Peek at your pactmates 'faction profile' every turn. If they aren't really happy with you, give them something. Also, it's not necessary to lose the tech race or even share it fully with your pactmates. Give them at least the tech they are researching, so that they are working on something new for both of you. But a combination of gifted bases/tech/cash/units can keep them happy even if they don't have the great tech you do. Be warned however that if your pact-bro researches a tech with a Special Project attached, they might tell you to bugger-off till they finish the project. Sometimes they'll still give it to you, esp. if you have a nice tech to trade.

I'm with cbn on the 'let's gang up on so and so' proposal. I only accept it if it seems expedient. Otherwise it's a needless risk.

-Smack

	04-08-2001 05:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

as sven i pacted with aki early so she could feed me techs every time i said "why my goodwill and friendship" and SE wouldn't conflict until late game. i pacted with roze because i wanted a good excuse to kick the sh*t out of the usurpers who were slowly sucking the life out of the angels, and i was running demo. aki shared a continent with the caretakers, who magically didn't crush aki's 5 crappily defended bases, and finally i just stockpiled about 20 x shard copters in a sea base i had outside of... that's besides the point.

the point is, you can keep a pact with people if you save them from the aliens and give them all the useless size 1 alien bases that i didn't gas the **** out of. submissives are useful too especially if they're stupid like morgan or fungboy who surrender when i've only taken 1 insignificant sea base.