03-08-2001 00:45									#1
	Little features of SMAC I´d like to see in Civ3 Suffering from ads?

Looking at the features of Civ3 that are confirmed already, I recognize quite a lot of things that made SMAC a worthy successor of Civ2 for me (even though I don´t like Science Fiction that much). Borders, enhanced diplomacy, alternate paths to victory, ranged weapons, build queues, a visible fog of war ... they´re all in. Okay, the unit workshop didn´t make it, and we don´t know for sure what steps Firaxis has taken towards SE or unique civilizations (apart from special units), but the first two items smacked of SciFi for me, anyway. So, there´s good reason to expect Civ3 to be the best Civ-style game so far. Apart from that, there will be ressources, culture, armies ... man, I WANT that game!

And suddenly I remember the little things that made me enjoy playing SMAC or simply fixed a loophole in Civ2. Things that no one confirmed to be part of Civ3 (or at least I didn´t notice). In particular:

• Unit upgrading. While I know that this feature could be exploitet in SMAC to get units for a fraction of their proper costs, some kind of upgrading makes perfect sense also in Civ gameplay terms. Any player should be able to spend his treasury for the kind of upgrading Leonardo´s workshop does for free. (Okay, get rid of 'in-the-field'-upgrading). Why not change Leonardo´s to a minor wonder?
  
• Utilizing of excessive shield production. I won´t micromanage a citizen to a specialist for one turn and save two shields otherwise lost. In Civ2, that didn´t help my AI opponents, but had I ever played multiplayer (I´m intending for Civ3), I´d probably have been in trouble. On the other hand, does this 'feature' ever add to the overall game experience? Please change!
  
• In-game power graph. (No comment. Maybe I´ve just ignored it all the time in Civ2?)
  
• The scoring system. While you could boost your score in Civ2 simply by squandering money for luxuries in the final stages of the game, this was eliminated in SMAC. 1 citizen equals 1 point. Adopt!

	03-08-2001 02:12									#2
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quote: Okay, the unit workshop didn´t make it,

I think it did, can anyone confirm?

quote: Again, I didn´t fall in love with the SMAC setting, but with the little details of the gameplay. And while I´m already impressed by Civ3 so far, I really hope the above features make it into the game. (Perhaps the new Civ site will tell.)

I'm sure some of those features will be added to the final game. All we've seen are alpha shots, and the no info has surfaced recently. Nothing's final as of yet, so anything's possible.

	03-08-2001 02:31									#3
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Lockstep,

I agree. I'm no Sci Fi nut, but SMAC's gameplay touches and nuiances make it so enjoyable. I actually did enjoy the "technology announcements" because they were so imaginative though. But overall, the atmosphere of SMAC/X is way too dark for me, in this genre anyhow. That is one of the main reasons I want Civ3 so bad. Your comment about unit upgrading couldn't have been put better. I absolutely love that feature. I supposed "in the field" upgrading is a little unrealistic, but please by all means Firaxis, leave in this wonderful feature. The only way lack of "in the field" upgrading would piss me off though is if SMAC's mobility/chasis modifyer is there. That is, you can't upgrade to a unit w/ a higher mobility rating. The reason this would be frustrating if left in is because we know they won't be a unit workshop. For instance, when I get Adv. Ecological Engineering in SMAC, the first thing I want to do is upgrade all my Formers to Super Formers, but because the default Super Former unit uses a chasis w/ a movement of 2, I have to go into the workshop and make one w/ a Chasis of 1, thus allowing me to upgrade. If say in Civ3 I have a Former-or-whatever-they're-gonna-call-it in a city and I go to upgrade him, but I can't because the next best former unit has a higher movement rating, that'd kindof defeat the whole purpose, no?

	03-08-2001 02:43									#4
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I agree with your last statement, fluxcapacitor.

Another thing I like about SMAC is the City Governor and the production que. I hope at least the production que will be back with Civ3. Having that would make MP more fun and easy. As well as making it easier in SP but it seems to be more beneficial in MP. With all the time restraints you have in MP.

	03-08-2001 02:52									#5
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Orbital systems, but not nut/energy/min/defence satellites. Maybe astronomical telescope satellites... maybe an ATS launched by a city (almost typed "base" ) would increase it's science output. And a "Space Station"-wonder would be cool, but not likely, right?
And that "put money in getting more score"-thing... What is wrong with it? I think a person should be rewarded for pursuing the happiness of his citizens.

	03-08-2001 03:40									#6
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TechWins: Although I´m not sure about governors, build queues are confirmed by Firaxis. See http://www.firaxis.com/civ3/faq-general.cfm for details (the part starting with 'I´m soo confused').

kassiopeia: Generally, pursuing the happiness of your citizens in the 6000+ years of your rule should be reflected in a higher score. But I don´t think you should be rewarded for luxuries you granted only in the last but one turn. In Civ2 as in SMAC cities with happier citizens tended to grow faster (the 'We Love The Leader Day' comes to mind, however unbalanced it was), so 'happier citizens' meant 'more citizens' to the extend you provided for luxuries in the long run. Actually, the SMAC formula '1 citizen = 1 point' reflected your long-term happiness pretty well, whereas in Civ2 it was a sort of double count (and worse, invited to late-game score boosting).

	03-08-2001 05:51									#7
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I was always a big fan of social engineering, and I am disappointed that a similar model hasn't been introduced in Civ3. Perhaps what could be done is to have the central government models (monarchy, democracy, republic) and have other options added on (feudalism, colonialism, welfare state, national healthcare), of course some models and options being mutually exclusive (eg, democracy and feudalism).

A kind of hybrid, if you will. Each additional option would bring a unique benefit and counteracting side effect, and would require the same social modifier models as SMAC (eg +3 efficiency, -2 industry), if you get the idea...

	03-08-2001 12:58									#8
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What?! I thought there was going to be social engineering?...

	03-08-2001 13:37									#9
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no design workshop and no SE

but what i'd like to see in civ3 from SMAC is multiple levels of morale...that is a much better system than in civ2 where a unit was either normal or veteren...i don't see why they would go back to the civ2 system but i really hope they don't

	03-08-2001 14:32									#10
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Firaxis should really have the unit workshop, social engineering, and multiple levels of experience in there.

	03-08-2001 14:44									#11
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PH,

What you are stating is something that I've stated many times. I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented. It would add great diversity betwee the civs. Two civ's govs. could both be democracy yet their govs. could still be very different. One could choose more of the militariastic options out of the SE and the other could choose more of the enconomical options. Leading for those two govs. with the same base gov. (democ.) would still be very unique from each other. This would also be more realistic than having one (base gov. & SE) without the other and also be more fun.

quote: but what i'd like to see in civ3 from SMAC is multiple levels of morale

I believe that has been confirmed by Firaxis. I'm not positive, though.

	03-08-2001 14:46									#12
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Precisely, it is a shame they have not implemented that model though TechWins. Hope for Civ4 that this is the case. And yeah, I am sure I have heard about multiple morale levels. After SMAC, I don't see why they would go back. Apparently it is quite a nifty little morale system as well, but this is vague knowledge I have heard after a long winded discussion with Snapcase down the bar once

	03-08-2001 15:01									#13
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Oh yes, another thing that I would like to see implemented is the principle of the Planetary Council, in civ3, as the United Nations, where you could vote on certain issues and plans to be enacted on a global scale, and even allow cooperative peacekeeping against an unwanted enemy. This could be dependent on a wonder, the first builder of which would gain a critical vote advantage (ie, look at the power the US wields within the UN).

Basically, the concept of the Planetary Council carried forward and placed in a context fit for Civ...

	03-08-2001 15:12									#14
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quote: Planetary Council

That would be great. It could add so much more diplomacy to the modern era. In return this might spice up the war atmosphere. I sure hope the effect of building the wonder UN is changed. The idea of gaining a vote advantage wouldn't be bad. Maybe your vote could count as two instead of one.

One more thing, thanks for the confirmation and link lockstep.

	03-08-2001 16:14									#15
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I think the UN should become aviable after the UN wonder is build and the one who builds it should get veto power as reward.

	03-08-2001 19:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by fluxcapacitor Lockstep, I supposed "in the field" upgrading is a little unrealistic...

Has anyone suggested returning a unit back to a base before it could upgrade?

	03-08-2001 22:42									#17
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Multiple levels of morale ... that one should be in Civ3, too. The best thing about it was not the sheer number of levels (I could live with 3 or 4 instead of SMAC´s 7), but the fact that you generally could not obtain elite units in the early game simply by building command centers (alias barracks). Your units actually had to fight to get promoted to the highest level. (Although, IIRC, that did not apply for the Spartan faction.)

As for SE: I really hope that at least the ordinance system suggested by Korn469 will make it into Civ3. It does not require SMAC´s social modifiers and therefore cannot be accused of being 'SciFi'.

About the UN/Planetary Council: Several previews mentioned new paths to victory (PC GamePlay talking about 'UN victory'), so I guess the UN is in.

BTW, does everyone but me agree with the '1 happy citizen = 2 points' rule?

	04-08-2001 02:55									#18
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I really hated the unit workshop. It made the units boring and predictable. Besides, since Civ spans over a so much longer time period, the technology makes such drastic changes it would be impossible to maintain standard models and just upgrade them gradually. I'm glad it didn't make it to Civ III.

Last edited by Juggernaut on 04-08-2001 at 03:18

	04-08-2001 02:58									#19
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i would love a more involved UN model... someone dig up that old thread

	04-08-2001 04:00									#20
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Something that was nice in SMAC was the little narrative sequence when you discovered a new advance, I would like to see this is in Civ 3 where perhaps someone told you when and how this advance was used in history ( learnings fun ) , with a nice voice/voices this could add something to the game.

	04-08-2001 18:11									#21
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they didn't have a narrative sequence when you discovered techs in civ2? it's been a few months since i've played...but that was one of the better features in SMAC and i hope that it is in civ3 also (maybe they could have quotes from real people this time)

also the UN sounds more developed, and it has became a new method of victory

Last edited by korn469 on 04-08-2001 at 18:18

	04-08-2001 18:16									#22
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You can edit the quotes in SMAC. For example, you can put them to be quotes by Markos .

	04-08-2001 22:48									#23
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Obviously the quotes would be great to have included with a voiced recording of those that impacted each tech.

Things that should have been included from SMAC that are not going to be:

- elevation of some sort
- Social Engineering

	04-08-2001 22:57									#24
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Maybe we're talking about different things, tniem, but elevation is included. For example: when a warrior or other unit walks onto a mountain, they get a small increase in their sight range.