03-08-2001 16:42									#1
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What's the best RPG system? I don't mean any Computer RPG games, but a system that lets a player to generate an infinite number of campaigns and adventures.

It would be nice too if you elaborate on your choice.

	03-08-2001 19:31									#2
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I'd say that the most balanced skills system in a CRPG is in Deus Ex. In terms of replayability it's fantastic; for example, if you want to be a Badass Killing Machine you can add the Aggressive Defense augmentation (which prematurely detonates enemy rockets and plasma bursts), if you want to be a Sneaky Bastard then you can add the Spy Drone augmentation (which lets you create your own flying drone robots that can scout for you, and which also carry a one-use-only EMP attack for taking out cameras, auto-guns, and robots), but you cannot add both augmentations (even with cheats). This allows you to customize your character, and also allows your to customize your style of play (for example, without Aggressive Defense I would be vaporized if I tried to face down a military robot packing missile launchers, so instead I have to find a quiet corner where I can fire up a Spy Drone to EMP the robot to death).

In terms of customizability and replayability (i.e. with regard to pen and paper RPG's) I have only had experience with the AD&D system, but this has enough customizability for me. You can generate your own spells, skills, feats, etc., and then test them out to see how the game balance works. Also, with a good DM, the focus is not on levelling up (as it is in MMORPG's, which I loathe), but instead the focus is on character development and story advancement. Unfortunately, a good DM is hard to find.

I've played some Battletech, but only as a board game and not as an RPG. I'd play it one-on-one against a friend of mine in college; we'd each build a mech (or two, or three), and the last man standing wins. We'd give our Mechwarriors skill points for winning, but that was the only RPG element that we kept.

	03-08-2001 21:03									#3
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Might try Warhammer, it is more detailed than Dungeons & Dragons and models the real world of the land... Its skill system allows for more 'real' jobs that can have encounters with bandits and robbers.

Battletech- fairly good. I remember in a game with 9 when a Cauldron Born exploded on the map and destroyed 1 mech and injured 4 more severely.

	04-08-2001 09:09									#4
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I like the D&D systems after I tiner with them, but I can never find players. That and I never have time to play.

	04-08-2001 10:06									#5
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Have any of you played GURPS (Generic Universal Role Playing System) published by Steve Jackson games? The game mechanics are okay but the system isn't really that generic or universal.

Another system we used to tinkered a lot is the Champions system. It's very good at depicting campaigns of high power levels, i.e. superheroes etc. but not as good with dealing with normals (e.g. a person can fall from a 10-storey building and walk away unscratched).

Not sure about Deus Ex has never played it. AD&D is not a good RPG IMO. I understand some people have heavily modifed the system, but then it's no longer AD&D it's something else. There are a lot of things to dislike about, but mainly the alignment system, the class system, the way spells are casted, how experience is given, attributes, and the lack of skills (this has been improved in the later versions but as more or less a tag-on).

Warhammer isn't bad but there are lots of parcularities (e.g. rolling a 7 is the same as rolling a 6).

	04-08-2001 10:08									#6
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AD&D 1st edition, with all extras. The combat system kept you moving along, and the rest of the game could be as detailed--or not--as you'd like. That, and I knew the rules to the extent that I could run a game without looking up rules or tables.

2nd edition was an attempt to get gamers to throw out all thier books and buy all-new pretty garbage. Rulebooks had lots of art, larger, colorful text, and gave much less information. They were also written for a much lower reading level (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is annoying to someone used to a more literate style). Level limits to spells was arbitrary, the removal of monks and assasins was arbitrary, and what they did to rangers (my favorite class) was criminal.

3rd edition is promising, and I plan to adapt reams of it into my '1st editon' games, but in the end, it isn't the same game.

	06-08-2001 01:31									#7
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Urban Ranger, I agree that 1st and 2nd edition AD&D weren't very good, but I'd say that the d20 system, which 3rd edition D&D uses is a good system for an RPG.

	06-08-2001 06:00									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk 2nd edition was an attempt to get gamers to throw out all thier books and buy all-new pretty garbage. Rulebooks had lots of art, larger, colorful text, and gave much less information. They were also written for a much lower reading level (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is annoying to someone used to a more literate style). Level limits to spells was arbitrary, the removal of monks and assasins was arbitrary, and what they did to rangers (my favorite class) was criminal.

Most of what you said of the 2nd Edition was true, they eliminated some good stats- but the reason they changed editions was because a new person bought the company and said "I can run an RPG game better than RPG gamers because they are scum." (loosely quoted from Computer Games Magazines' expose on the D&D series)

	06-08-2001 20:12									#9
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Has anybody played Wraith, Mage, or Vampire?

	07-08-2001 07:48									#10
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Why would anybody want to play Wraith? Wouldn't he get upset?


TMM,

A long long time ago I had all the 1^st edition AD&D books, inc. Fiend Folio and MM2. Also most of the "official" adventures and some non-official ones, mostly by Thieves' Guild. Even though it has the best rules within the AD&D "universe" I eventually found that I rather preferred a skill-based instead of a class-based system. It's not a bad intro system but there's hardly any role playing elements in them.

	07-08-2001 13:59									#11
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at first fallout is good. but the perks and traits aren't all that great.

I like the skills, primary and secondary stats though. combat system is decent, but needs improvement.

other than AD&D I haven't played that many rpg styles except Diablo2/1 (if you can call that an rpg of course)

I cannot remember the old wasteland rules

Anybody ever play top secret? I really loved the rule system in that game (you use 2 10 sided dice for everything- everything is a %). although good missions were hard to construct, and the game had limited playability. but the character part of it was fun as hell. Not to mention cool guns and weapons

	07-08-2001 17:05									#12
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I have to disagree; there is plenty of opportunity to role-play in any table-top RPG; you just have to work at it. I used to play with my brother and a very small group of friends; AD&D, Traveller, Paranoia, Toon,, we played them all (I DM'd the 'more serious' RPGs, Pete usually DM'd the others). We had a number of 'singular' characters in these games--most developed by my brother (my personal favorite was a mage the would drink anything he came across, and tended to cast his spells in the wrong direction...)

If you're talking about customization, I'd have to agree that first edition AD&D suffers in that department. The difficulty in mixing classes and the literal requirement of a miracle to improve one's stats was one of the things I did find fault with in the game. One the things I'm adapting from the 3rd ed. is the ability to gain additional stat points as the character progresses, and I'm seriously considering adding the full-blown skills system as well (allowing characters access to skills outside their class, but at a significant cost, is a very interesting concept).

	07-08-2001 19:56									#13
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3rd edition AD&D can be customized into a Skill-based system instead of a Class-based system by making a few alterations: make Prestige classes that better match the character that you're trying to create, and add some Combat skills (like parry, riposte, etc.) in order to replace the level-and-class-based "base attack bonus."

	09-08-2001 10:11									#14
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TMM,

"I have to disagree; there is plenty of opportunity to role-play in any table-top RPG; you just have to work at it."

While that's true in a broad sense, why would you want to fight against a system that restricts you instead of using a system that promotes role-play? Certainly a person can construct adventures with "throw-away" characters that are fun to play, but it's a lot harder to do it in campaigns that lasts for months or even years. In AD&D if you don't at least make a semi- "combat monster" character he or she's going to get killed very fast.


Dissident,

Yes I have played the first edition of Top Secret. It's a lot of fun if you can get a good referee.


techophile,

Certainly you can modify the rules of any RPG to your heart's content. The question is though "Is that the original game?" I used to play in a first edtion AD&D campaign game that's modified so heavily it might as well be a totally different game.

	09-08-2001 19:12									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Certainly you can modify the rules of any RPG to your heart's content. The question is though "Is that the original game?" I used to play in a first edtion AD&D campaign game that's modified so heavily it might as well be a totally different game.

The variation of AD&D that I briefly played was certainly not AD&D. In fact, I submitted an article to Dragon magazine detailing the combat modifications that I'd made to the system, and it was rejected as being too much of a departure from AD&D. But, it was one of the few RPG systems that we were familiar with (the ONLY one I was familiar with, aside from Battletech), and it had umpteen different expansions, accessories, and adventures that could be modified to fit our pseudo-AD&D campaign. Had we found an RPG system that was nearly identical to the pseudo-AD&D system that we wound up using (or one that would have been a fair replacement) it is unlikely that we would have had access to the number of "extras" that are available for AD&D. It's a trade-off to be certain.

	13-08-2001 02:11									#16
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Well there's allways Rolemaster, gotta love them charts
seriously though, the AD&D system is hideously imbalanced (non wizes suck horribly once you get to mid-levels unless you load them down with heaps of magic items) and not all that good for strategy (especially for the non-wizes)...

	13-08-2001 08:35									#17
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Rolemaster is okay, how about science fiction RPGs?

	13-08-2001 13:21									#18
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I remember gamma world when I was reall young. but I was really too young to understand that game. and consequently can't remember anything about it except for mark V lasers or something .

I remember car wars. but that wasn't really a rpg. although you did have a driver who could earn prestige and such. That was a bad ass game though

	14-08-2001 12:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident mark V lasers or something .

That would be mark V blasters (and mark VII blaster rifles) - and I didn't even need to look that one up! (Is this a good thing? )

I must've had 50-60 PnP RPG's at one point, AD&D (original) included, and I think my favourites would have to be;

Rifts (Palladium Books) : AD&D-like wrt game system and (IMO anyway) the best-ever setting/scope for an RPG.

Torg (WEG) : Best all-round game system. Unique in the way it worked. Not easy to get used to but very robust. Also with an excellent setting.

Paranoia (?) : Horrible clunky system but deserves a mention as an absolute riot to play - especially with a good GM.

and AD&D itself. I guess everybody would come up with their own house rules, etc to fix/change the standard playing style (and it pretty much needed it too) but it was the first. Also the enormous number of accessories, modules, etc minimized the advance preparation time often needed for an extended campaign..

	15-08-2001 05:09									#20
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Okay, here we go ...

Dungeons & Dragons (Original Rules)
Still one of the all time best rules out there, with a well developed world and many adventures. With TSRs release of the Rules Cyclopedia, compiling all the levels into one book (Basic-Master), and the Gazoteer series, it was very well supported. Simple rules, class based with a few failures. The rules were almost too simple, and the races were classes. Still one of my all time favorites. I own every gazateer, the original boxed sets, the rules cyclopedia and the Wrath of the Immortals rules for immortal characters.

Advanced D&D (1st Edition)
This system went too far the other way. They departed from simplicity and made the rules way way too complex. The variety in sub-races was nice. Not much in the way of continuity across the classes though. Some were very achetypical (Fighter, Wizard) others just a mess (Monk, Assassin). The Oriental rules included a monk too, but the western setting should never have had this class. Overall, a failure in my books. Still, I used it a lot, and still own just about every book (with newer covers/editions) except for the Fiend Folio. Manual of the planes was the only great success out of AD&D 1st. And I won't even go into psionics ...

AD&D 2nd Edition
This system was very successful in fixing some of the problems with 1st edition. THe rules were greatly simplified, and continuity across the class (wizards v specialists and clerics v druids especially) lined up nicely. The worst offending classes were eliminated (Monk, Assassin, Barbarian and Cavalier). In some cases, the simplifications went a little too far (lack of subraces, all classes a little too similar). Fortunately, the release of the Players Option series fixed many of these oversimplification weaknesses for people willing to use them, while maintaining the simplicity of a few basic archetypes to build off of. Psionics were fixed, but the outer planes ruined (Planescape ). All in all, my favorite system, until ...

AD&D 3rd Edition
Finally, someone came along and fixed the problems in multiclassing. In addition, combat rules are simplified further, and the new skills system and feats concepts are breathtaking. The only flaw is the lack of ease in customizing some classes. However the Skills & Feats system negates this somewhat. They reintroduced the Barbarian & Monk, which I'm not wild about, although the barbarian seems to work a little better this time around, and introduced a Sorcerer class (finally magic spells without spellbooks!). I've outlawed monks in my normal campaign worlds, although I will allow it in a oriental setting. Prestige classes I'm not so happy about, but they do allow the idea of class customizability as little more (ala Warhammer RPG). And the Psionics book is fantastic. I'm enjoying 3rd edition a lot, even though it is a fairly radical departure from 2nd edition. I've got all the core books and the Psionics book.

Rifts, Palladium RPG, Beyond the Supernatural
Too complex, and slow to play. A new class for every possible concept they can think of, and the skills are loosely defined as to affect. The one saving grace is the combat system is wonderful in regards to modern combat, if very slow to use. However, the setting for Rifts (futuristic with magic) appeals to many of my players, so I have a dozen or so rifts books, and palladium & beyond the supernatural to intergrate those with rifts.

Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles
Another Palladium RPG that suffers from the same problems. The only thing about it worth commenting on is that it is a lot more down and dirty than the cartoon ever was.

Heroes Unlimited & Ninjas and Superspies
These books, using the standard palladium rules, suffer from the same problems (complex & slow). However, the concepts (superheroes, superspies & martial arts) appeal to me more, and the martial arts combat system (augmented from the basic palladium rules) works so well that I've intergrated it into every palladium system I use.

Runequest
No classes is an interesting concept, and the variety of skills are fun and pretty well defined. I like that most characters start as a basic hunter/gatherer or farmer (skill wise). I also like the magic system, very different from the D&D rules (anyone can easily learn magic). The thing that kills the game for me is character complexity, which overwhelms all but my most experience players, and speed of play, which is slow slow slow. I only own the basic rulebook for this game.

Warhammer RPG
Class pathways are a fun concept in this game. You start with a common class (sailor for instance) and advance from there, similar to the Runequest idea. A large variety of skills. I remember not being very impressed by this game, but can't remember why at the moment, since I haven't pulled out my rule book for it in a decade. That says it all to me.

BattleTech RPG
Let's just say they should have left it as a table top wargame.

Gamma World
The second RPG I ever played. I vaguley remember it as complex but fun. The post apocalyptic setting was probably why I was willing to put up with trying to figure out all the rules, since that was brand new to me at the time, and interesting for a short time. I doubt I would enjoy it anymore, since that setting bores me now.

Dragon Roar
The first RPG I ever played. Simple, set in a Tolkien like world, and fun. Used cardboard squares with pictures on them to represent your characters (ie cheap minatures) and was heavily dependant on their use. I'd be very suprised if anyone had ever heard of it.

Top Secret
A terrible rules system, but fun as hell to play anyway because of the setting (My name is Bond, James Bond ...)

	15-08-2001 14:28									#21
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Let me see what I have/had played:

D&D (Original Rules)

A very simple introduction to the RPG concept. The game bears many of the same faults as AD&D. I have fond memories of adventuring in Keep of the Borderlands. I still have the original box set and Ardrium Grimore (sp?).


AD&D First Edition

Have many flaws, such as class-based characters, alignments, hit points, levels, the magic system, among others. In other words, just about everything. The books are fun to read though.

As Boshko pointed out the system tilts heavy towards spellcasters, and there are just way too many magic items. Not even in LotR you find so much stuff floating around.


Runequest

Interesting battle magic system and quite an elegant system of rules for "contest." The list of deities are definitely neat and the rune-based power system is still unusal. As opposed to Fitz I found combats are resolved quite quickly. One of the first RPG systems that replaces a character class system with a skill-based system. It has a number of unique monsters such as the Dragon Newts.


DragonQuest Second Edition

Very good FRPG system that borrowed heavily from literature. Also has a skilled based system. The magical college system has a nice coherence. The combat system is detailed and thus slow This game uses percentile dice instead of the usual D6's, giving better accuracy in combat and use of skills.


Champions

One of the best RPG system for depicting superheroes. The system is very clean, even though you have to roll lots of D6's for combat The system isn't as good when scaled down as characters become too tough.


Ars Magica

Perhaps the best system for role playing, the game skims somewhat on combat while focus on interactions.


Rolemaster

If you like lots of lists this game is for you


Space Opera

An interesting SFRPG with too many details. The system is somewhat too complicated. Cool gadgets, though.


Universe

Yet another SFPRG. Can't remember the details now though it seemed good at the time.


Top Secret

A lot of fun to play. The way experience is given is silly even though a notch above AD&D.


Shadowrun

A science fantasy RPG that has a bunch of quirks. The setting is very similar to that of Cyberpunk with magic added.


Cyberpunk

A SFRPG that's inspired by Philip K. Dick's vision of a dark future (think Blade Runner with additional stuff from Gibson's work (mainly deckers who can connect computers directly into their heads).


Fantasy Hero

A FRPG that's based on Champions. Somewhat lackluster, but we had some interesting campaigns that made up for it.


Warhammer

A FRPG that uses a career-oriented type approach. You start out in a basic career, bring up your skills and stats until you can meet the requirements of a more advanced career before you can switch. Has a bunch of quirks.

	18-08-2001 06:46									#22
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All my most favourite roleplaying experiences have come from a referee that basically ignores whatever the rulebooks say and plays the storyline. That said, if we have to focus on rules then:

Basalon: Fantasy game completely written from the ground up by our group. The Ref with all the ideas then wrote a complete city, literally house by house, with so many labyrinthine plotlines it was unbelievable. Just leaving the inn to get a loaf of bread from the market could turn into a major adventure. A system based on D20 stats and combat and % skills for everything else, with a magic system that is strongly based on the warlock boardgame. Most original concept: Mages fight to hold primed spells in, not to recall them. They are rightly feared because if you hit one and don't kill them then one of their "primed" spells will go off immediately. A mage with a forward-facing fireball spell 'primed' tends to find themselves leading the party, not being protected by the fighters

Werewolf: Beautifully detailed world and solid mechanics

Warhammer: Simple but effective system, strong world development

Palladium: Nice career based system but can be abused by rules lawyer types since taking several careers at low levels can be significantly more effective than sticking with just one.

Cthulu: Terrifying if done right.

Twilight 2000: Guns galore. Need a good ref to get a story rather than an excuse for a firefight.

AD&D: Lots of fun but you have to play for laughs because the system rerally does suck if you look too carefully at it. 3rd edition is looking significantly different but is on my hate list because they seem to be going for the 'release 100 additional compendiums to get all your spells and skills back' approach again.

Rolemaster: Perfect for the roleplayer who loves to have a chart or specific rule to cover any situation rather than getting the Ref to make it up on the spot.

Uni: Another unique system that we developed but more similar to original D&D. Strictly for fun sytem. Everyone has at least one silly magic spell, a bit like the Piers Anthony Xanth novels. You have to invent your own spell vocals to fit the situation, and the better and more imaginative they are, the better your spells work. Example character: Thumper the Ogre who can fly if she remembers to flap her arms. Example magic item: The cauldron of everlasting porridge.

Pendragon: Great fun for playing Arthurian Knights but the prewritten adventures are terribly linear, fairly lethal and sometimes almost impossible to complete. With a little tweaking the Round Table atmosphere is very enjoyable. No thieves or mages around to kick up a fuss at the goody-goody behaviour of the knights

Last edited by Grumbold on 18-08-2001 at 06:52