14-11-2000 23:20									#1
	ICS Question Suffering from ads?

I've read Dave's ICS strategy in the Great Library. It recommends building a warrior in each city. I have tried playing ICS twice and on both occasions, my warriors and cities were getting slaughtered by the barbs. The horsemen I've built aren't always in position to attack the barbs before they reach my cities. In fact, sometimes the barbs are from a hut my horsemen tipped.

Should I be building a phalanx in each city instead of a warrior? Or, is losing a number of cities and units just a cost of doing business under ICS?

	14-11-2000 23:34									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I'll commonly evacuate the city, take my treasury down to around 100, and then pay them the 50 gold to stay away. That is usually cheaper than building a diplomat or military unit.

After I build the Great Wall and Leo's workshop. I can laugh at whatever they send my way. Their crusaders do nothing more than give me vet musketeers.

	14-11-2000 23:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Tip huts with the first move of your exploring horsemen - then they can attack or run away with their second move. If the hut is on heavy terrain, I sometimes leave it for later (note that a hut inside a city radius will never yield barbarians), or tip it with a warrior or archer. If you explore systematically, the barbs are less likely to come bursting out of the black and surprise you.

Roads are the key to having your horses in position to respond to barbs. Station enough horses in your cities so you always have two horses able to attack each square adjacent to each city. Phalanxes aren't much help against barb archers and chariots.

Barbarians are the biggest early threat to an ICSer, but they can be dealt with. A lot of players welcome the appearance of barbs, because of the opportunity to cash in on the leader.

One other tip - avoid researching Chivalry too early, because that's what turns the barb pirates from archers to knights/crusaders.

	15-11-2000 01:31									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Get writing fast. Use roads, a diplomat, and cash to recruit an army of former barbs. With a little luck and timing, you can use the last recruited barb to kill his own leader. If I fet caught with money in the treasury, I'll let the barbs take the city and have a diplo buy it back. NOT good for population and improvements, but usually good for a few really cheap units in the city.

	15-11-2000 23:32									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

DaveV, if i understand you correctly, then its one warrior and two horses per city and not the traditional two warriors and one horse?

	15-11-2000 23:41									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, most of the cities would have 2 warriors and no horses. Each strategically-located city with two horses could protect all other cities within 3 squares. Generally, my cities don't grow beyond size 2, so the third unit is out exploring and causing trouble instead of being stuck in the city.

	23-11-2000 03:58									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Dave's ICS strategy does not mention building the Great Wall unless playing MP. Should I build it when playing against the computer as well?

Thanks very much to all for the replies above.

	23-11-2000 07:37									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

DaveV how do your horses survive those damm barb archers all the time much less attack twice if multiple units attack. I know two horses can kill archers but still, i find it difficult. Plus my cities grow too quickly for just two units i find

	23-11-2000 19:03									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Mercantile,
Control your city size by building settlers - once the city reaches size 2 move production to shields and concentrate on settler production - also don't forget that Barb archers defend at 1 (not 2) so are easy meat for a horsey...


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	26-11-2000 01:26									#11
	Tired of ads?

One more thing. I'm in my first ICS game now...have 110 cities, so the settlers from the middle of the empire have a long way to travel to the fringes; even with roads. I have just gotten Statue of Liberty and want to switch to Communism or Fundy. Problem: settler food support jumps from 1 to 2 and will cause settlers to disband or population losses in cities. This issue is not discussed in Dave's ICS Strategy Guide. Have I done something wrong?

	26-11-2000 04:29									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Legman, it is a pretty safe bet that archers do in fact defend at one despite what the manual and stats state. They lose to horses all the time, however like everything else in civ, nothing is written in stone.

Yes, how does one do the monarchy to commie thing with all that extra food support ? I never ics as a strat, i am a perfectionist so i rarely go commie unless its wartime DaveV or Scouse Gits, you two seem to be masters of ics could you explain this to me.
[This message has been edited by Mercantile (edited November 26, 2000).]

	28-11-2000 10:19									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Settler support can be a problem in switching from monarchy to commie/fundy government. How I deal with the problem:

1. Most cities are only supporting one settler; usually I can rearrange workers to provide the extra food to keep that settler alive.

2. For cities suppporting more than one settler, or with very little food, you can run a food deficit as long as your food box doesn't go empty. As the food runs out, I look to (in order of preference):

a. Build cities with troublesome settlers.
b. Re-home troublesome settlers to cities with food surpluses (or with food in the box).
c. Add the troublesome settler to an existing city.
d. Disband the troublesome settler.

	28-11-2000 00:53									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I tried to do this Dave, and man i had so many settlers it wasn't funny. People were starvin all over the place, i am surprised my country didn't hang me for crimes against the state. I obviously need to watch what i am doing and prepare better for the shift to communism. Thanks for the advice

	28-11-2000 04:01									#16
	Remove this text

Thanks Dave. Like Mercantile, I have a truckload of settlers running around my world. I'll have to take good care not to lose them.

Thanks again for your valuable advice.

	29-11-2000 06:31									#17
	Tired of ads?

I'm getting into this discussion late but I think the original question was about defending cities against barbs in the early game.

Here are some criteria I keep in mind for early defense, when shields are scarce. First of all, I try to build as many cities as possible on rivers. The defense bonus may enable you to get by with only a warrior for a few turns.

Second, if the city is on the outer perimeter, then I build a phalanx; if it's on the inner portion, then I'm more prone to build a warrior.

Third, I will definitely build a phalanx if the city is near the coast or close to the enemy.

Since I only play single-player, this is generally enough to get me through the early game.

	29-11-2000 18:32									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Everyman,
Question: a warrior on a river still only has a defense factor of 1, doesn't it? 1 + 50%(river bonus) = 1.5...rounds down to 1?

	29-11-2000 20:06									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think these things are rounded down. The fractions do seem to make a difference. Besides, a fortified warroro on a river will have a defense of 2.

	08-12-2000 02:26									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

and if he is a veteran? 2? or 3? or 2.5?

are you sure the values are not rounded?

	08-12-2000 02:49									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm convinced (based on other people's research and my own experience) that all of the defensive factors are multiplied, and rounded off to the next lowest .125. So a fortified vet warrior on a river would have a defense factor of 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 3.375. He should be able to withstand an attack from a barb horse (attack = 3 at Deity), but will likely lose to a barb chariot (attack = 4.5 at Deity). If the river square also contains swamp, woods, or jungle, the defense is increased by an additional 1.5, rounding off to 5.0 - enough to withstand a barb chariot or archer.

	08-12-2000 06:17									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I just tested this and was very surprised. I had read elsewhere on this site that the bonuses were added up and then applied, so the total defense bonus for a vet warrior on a river would be 50%+50%+50%=150% added. In this case, the warrior would have a defense of 2.5

But when I tested it in cheat mode, nine Roman warriors fortified on a river survived attacks by Japanese chariots. Thus they all had defense higher then 3, supporting DaveV's number of 3.375

	08-12-2000 15:51									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Returning, if I may, to the government transition thing. I am forced to ask what are all these settlers doing if they are causing this much mayhem - and the answer that I fear is, "Irrigating and Mining, of course".
For my money, (but I bow to DaveV as my mentor and master) when playing ICS in Monarchy a settler has only one job and that is founding - an occasional road can be forgiven - we do need internal transport systems and I must admit to having mined a grape or two very very occasionally - but the big problem - as has been stated above - is excessive city growth which we simply cannot stand in Monarchy so never ever irrigate until you go Fundy - my personal preference - I like medieval warfare so go Fundy - close down research (rely instead on trade for advances) - the stupid AI follows suit so you don't drop that far behind - and you will be conquering and buying most of your science anyway and with unhappiness a thing of the past - now you can grow your cities ...

I have a fun game going on a Giga map when I experimented with a Republican sleaze before going Fundy and buying the world - now that is fun - again inspired by DaveV's no wonder ICS scenario - it occurred to me that a strategy that can support ICS without wonders could support ICS with Republican growth if you cut the wonders back in - and it works!

Anyway - the watchword - "Do what works for you" - good civin'

ps added in edit: Should anyone have the slightest interest I could email a few selected saves from my republican Sleaze game - it's keeping me very happy, but I make no further claims for it. (sorry MP only)
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 08, 2000).]

	09-12-2000 05:34									#24
	Remove this text

Scouse Gits,

I am the one with the government transition problem. As I said above, it's a long way from the center of my empire to the fringes, even with roads. I have not irrigated or mined one square. All I've been doing is laying roads to new city locations and founding.

	11-12-2000 07:59									#25
	Remove this text

Rehome settlers to other cites for support as they move out. Do a LOT of founding just before the switch. Remember, ICS does not require ideal sites, just lots of them.