04-08-2001 10:16									#1
	CivIII Animated leader-Germans Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Who will be the animated leader for the Germans in CivIII? Tell us what you think!

	04-08-2001 10:43									#2
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Adolf Hitler.

	04-08-2001 16:57									#3
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I don't really know any of them, except for Adolf...and if it becomes Adolf, the Germans won't suvive one single game

	04-08-2001 17:01									#4
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If it will be Hitler, I'll trash the Germans. Fu*kitler was the worst person ever. I also have neverplayed Russians in Civ, because of their leader being Stalin (and BTW, that was USSR, not Russia).

	04-08-2001 17:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Solver , because of their leader being Stalin (and BTW, that was USSR, not Russia).

Good point Solver!!

I am almost certain it will not be Hitler. The Germans had great thinkers and statesmen, I think it will be someone from them.

	04-08-2001 17:50									#6
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Yes, Barbarossa was just a conqueror, not so evil as Hitler, for example.
I don't know why was the Russians called Russians in Civ. They had cities like Minsk, Riga, Kiev, which are not Russian, but were Soviet at those times. And, Stalin was a Soviet ruler.

	04-08-2001 18:01									#7
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Apart from his Racial Hatred, I quite liked the way Hitler got power over the Germans and rose to become a great leader. If he hadnt been mad he may have ended up winning the war and we would all be typing in German now.....

	04-08-2001 18:04									#8
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Besides... Hitler was Austrian, not German.

	04-08-2001 18:08									#9
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Hopefully not Chancellor Bismarck, he was the one who allowed Adolf to bcome the chancellor. He supported him and his ideals IMHO, as what I could determine with that history book at school. It will be Frederick the Great.

	04-08-2001 18:14									#10
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perhaps they should use mutiple leaders to give players a choose. I never use the leader they propose any way and always add my own name isntead....

	04-08-2001 18:16									#11
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quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia Hopefully not Chancellor Bismarck, he was the one who allowed Adolf to bcome the chancellor. He supported him and his ideals IMHO, as what I could determine with that history book at school. It will be Frederick the Great.

Well, it must have been a great history book, since Hitler was born in 1889 and Bismarck died in 1898 . I think you may be confusing him with Hindenburg.

But I also think it should be one of the Fredericks - actually, I would opt for Barbarossa, as leaders such as Frederick the Great (or Maria Theresa for that matter) did not rule Germany but Prussia (and Austria) respectively.

	04-08-2001 18:19									#12
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Then it just becomes the question of what was the country name at that time.

	04-08-2001 18:21									#13
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Marie Theresia was empress of Austria. So she cannot be the leader of the Germans.

But it's true that Hitler was born in Austria (1889 in Braunau). After he has failed to study in Vienna (Austria) he went to Germany (1913 Munich).

	04-08-2001 18:23									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Then it just becomes the question of what was the country name at that time.

The problem with Germany as a civilization is that there was no such country for the most time.

At first at least there was the Holy Roman Empire, so the Emperor may be considered such a ruler - and Barbarossa was Emperor.

But after that it degenerated. And consider that Maria Theresa and Frederick the Great ruled during the same time - one in Prussia and one in Austria, with dozens of other German states, like Bavaria, Saxony or Pfalz ruled by independent rulers.

So, if we choose a ruler from before the unification of Germany in late 19th century, it should be some Emperor (like Otto, Barbarossa or the Fowler).

	04-08-2001 18:25									#15
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Well, Israel also appeared in 20th century, but Jews have been a lognway before it.

	04-08-2001 18:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Eagle one Marie Theresia was empress of Austria. So she cannot be the leader of the Germans. But it's true that Hitler was born in Austria (1889 in Braunau). After he has failed to study in Vienna (Austria) he went to Germany (1913 Munich).

Well, Maria Theresa was theoretically the Holy Roman Empress of the German Nation (since the crown belonged to Hapsburgs back then). And, Austria was considered a part of Germany (along with Bohemia). But I agree it shouldn't be her.

	04-08-2001 18:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Well, Israel also appeared in 20th century, but Jews have been a lognway before it.

Yes, I have no problem with that. I was only saying that Germany's name back than was not Prussia or Austria, as both Prussia or Austria were part of the German Reich.

	04-08-2001 18:31									#18
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That's right. Luckily, it makes no problem to play the game.

	04-08-2001 19:18									#19
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I think everyone's forgetting a few things. Bismarck didn't support Hitler, and neither did Hindenburg - Hindenburg had to make Hitler the Chancellor because he was elected. Hindenburg even said he didn't want to see a Bohemian corporal became Chancellor of Germany.

And in CivII, the Russian male leader was Lenin.
And the German female leader was Maria Theresa.

AND there have been lots of butchers much worse than Hitler- he's just the most famous.

Hitler had 12 million people killed.
Stalin had 30 million.
Mao had over 60 million.

Genghis Khan wanted to depopulate China as a huge pasture for his horses - literally! until one of his generals stopped him.

You shouldn't focus only on Hitler. Just about every nation has had some bad eggs.

	04-08-2001 19:23									#20
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Good post, Alexander

	04-08-2001 19:28									#21
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It's true that most countries have had bad leaders, but Hitler does seem to rise above most of them.

	04-08-2001 19:30									#22
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Judging from the screenshot posted in the "Just the facts madame"-thread it will be Maria Theresia.

A clarification for those who say Maria Theresia was ruling Austria: That's not absolutely right. She also ruled Austria but through her husband Franz Stephan she was quasi Empress of the Holy Empire of German Nation. Until 1804, the habsburgs were german emperors and not austrian emperors. The Austrian empire "officially" started in 1806.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no german nationalist, but that's just fact: Until 1804, Austria was an official part of Germany and no one had a problem with that. After WWI, the vast majority of the Austrians felt german ("the 2nd german state"). We all have to remember that this was before Hitler and has nothing to do with what happened then.

	04-08-2001 19:35									#23
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You are right WernazumaIII. I was saying (at least I think so) the same a couple of posts before - Austria was (and to some extent culturally still is) a part of German civilization.

	04-08-2001 19:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Hindenburg even said he didn't want to see a Bohemian corporal became Chancellor of Germany.

Only because he confused Braunau in Austria with Braunau in Bohemia


And Alexander: Stop comparing badass with badass, madman with madman. Hitler's crimes where unique, as Stalin's where et al.
The combination of technocratic trying to make several genocides, launching the biggest war ever seems to be uncomparable.
I don't think that Russians should say "But Hitler was worse than Stalin!", so us germans and austrians shouldn't do it the other way around.

	04-08-2001 20:05									#25
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quote: I don't think that Russians should say "But Hitler was worse than Stalin!", so us germans and austrians shouldn't do it the other way around.

Yes, but we Poles can say both were equally bad

	04-08-2001 20:27									#26
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Yes, all the despots' crimes were unique. But I do not hold the view that Hitler was the worst of them all. During the Second World War, Finland actually turned to Hitler for help against Stalin and the Soviets.

I don't support what any of them did, mind you.

(Incidentally, Russia still has THEIR half of Poland)

Also, Montgomery and Patton were ready to press on for moscow after taking Berlin, but the Allied command were patsies to Stalin.

I think Hitler stands out just because he lost a war and had all his crimes revealed to the world.

All these madmen do the dirty work in secret - just because the others aren't publicized as much doesn't make them better.

I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans. I don't support what any of these insanely wicked men did, but I don't think we should single any one of them out as worse. They're all unique, but they're all in the same boat.

	04-08-2001 20:41									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans.

No one is saying that. It is very passee if you will We are a whole new generation
I think german culture is not very well respresented in Europe and that is a shame. You have great philisophers and statesmen as well as litterary writers.

But I do consider Hitler to be the worse ever. (although it must be all the greek villages the Nazis burned down as repayment for the guerilla resistance after we defeated the italians and the germans came over).

	04-08-2001 20:48									#28
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quote: Now don't get me wrong, I'm no german nationalist, but that's just fact: Until 1804, Austria was an official part of Germany and no one had a problem with that. After WWI, the vast majority of the Austrians felt german ("the 2nd german state"). We all have to remember that this was before Hitler and has nothing to do with what happened then.

After WWI, a majority of the Austrians even wanted to get part of Germany. They called it "Deutsch-Österreich" (German-Austria). But the Allies forbid the connection.

	04-08-2001 21:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus Yes, but we Poles can say both were equally bad

Granted, and "Noch ist Polen nicht verloren" ("Poland is not lost yet"; isn't that from your hymn or is this a myth?)

	04-08-2001 21:10									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I think Hitler stands out just because he lost a war and had all his crimes revealed to the world.

cause he was so mad that he didn't know where to stop. but you're right with the point.

quote: I'm tired of people only looking to the Germans as villains. Yes, I'm German. So what? I'm no Nazi. Yes, I've actually been mistreated by Jewish people who want to make up for the Holocaust by taking it out on me and other Germans. I don't support what any of these insanely wicked men did, but I don't think we should single any one of them out as worse. They're all unique, but they're all in the same boat.

No, not all germans are villains of course. I'm austrian and don't feel a personal guilt either. Still the rememberance is important and sometimes you only have to scratch the surface off of "normal" people here and you'll find old opinions hidden - even in our generation. Collectivizing the guilt on our generation is ridiculous however, there we agree. I've had a couple of confrontations with jewish people about that but always could make my point. But surely the fun is over when e.g. I wouldn't get a certain job just for being austrian...