11-12-2000 11:40									#1
	We put the "fun" in "fundamentalist extremist" Inflate your Upload Space

I love funadmentalism....and I have a strat which SHOULD work....

What do you think?

Fundamentalism.
I only really use this two times...when I've researched everything, and I'm beating up the AI, or when I get sick of research, and wanna beat up the AI.

Fundamentalism is the best war government there is (especially if the other side can't simply snap up all your cities with diplo's...)

It's not that you ~can't~ advance in Fundamentalism...it's just that you really don't HAVE to. First off...all citizens are content. Second, you get a "tithe" from those happiness improvements, which means LOTS of money...and each city can support eight soldiers with no problem.

So, if you have a small empire of 10 cities, you can support 80 units, without a problem...and that doesn't count Fanatics.

I like Fanatics....NOTHING(except maybe the warrior-to-Musketeer-to-Rifleman trick you can pull with Leos) is quite so cool....or has as much bang for the buck.

Fanatics, as you all know....right now, I'm talking to make sure I've got this right...

Fanatics have 4 4 1
They cost 20 shields, and no support undr fundamentalism.

If you have a ten city empire(which is TINY) each of which gives out 10 shields/turn, then You can build ten fanatics per turn....indefinately.

You spend 20 turns doing this, and you have 200 Fanatics bouncing about just ACHING to attack the enemy, and Nothing will stop them.

Cept, like an Ocean. But nothing your opponents can do(except control the sea) will stop your "Primitive" forces from kicking the living heck out of his nation.

Especially if you happen to also have Nukes...or similar levels of technology...
Use Nukes/Planes to hammer your opponents tough spots, and use Massive numbers of Fanatics to kill off everything like a plague of locusts. Let them die. They can be killed off in job lots and replaced with sickening ease.

Anything you don't want to just storm into (Say...a city on a Mountain, with three vetern Mech Infantry, a Barracks, and city walls, and you don't have airplanes..

Yeah, that WILL rip a large force to pieces...so go around it. Use Partisans, or explorers to surround it on all sides, and pillage ~everything~ daist chain on through, and waltz on past. You are not the AI, if the city is that important later, Nuke it and use a Paradrop.

Yeah...you might find the idea of spending 20 turns building an army boring. ::Nods:: I'll grant you...but it's worth it. That's for a Small empire...a larger empire, say something like 20 cities, each of which make 10 shields/turn can take ten turns and make the same number of units.

No other government can match this...basically, if you go fundie, they have to either hit you HARD with diplomats(And that will work...never forget that a diplo who zips in and swipes the city which has 50 fanatics assigned to it Kills all those Fanatics...) But barring that, and keeping your operational zone clear(through a massive fleet, preferably, and entrenched defenses) You can ignore them, and simply concentrate on replacing losses.

I'm gushing....sorry.

But, I LOVE Fanatics. I treat em like Locusts, not much of a threat individually, but 200 fanatics WILL get the job done. And it's less expensive than 40 Howies, and can be done a lot quicker, too.

Try it...Watch your river of fanatics rip anything which isn't in a major defensive city down like a dog, and any city you don't really want can simply be pillaged in a single turn, and then that city doesn't contribute anything...and if they kill em, so what? They need as many resources to kill off your armada as you needed to build it,and chances are you wounded the infrastructure, too.

Anyway....that's my ideas. Comments?

------------------
I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

	11-12-2000 19:34									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

This seems like a good variant of the "alpine horde" strategy. Just make sure all those troops are vets! A barracks only costs 2 fanatics.

	12-12-2000 10:29									#3
	Tired of ads?

The only difference between Fanatics and Alpines:
Alpines have 5 attack/defense...which means that one of them can Proberably defeat a single Fanatic.

They can move three squares a turn. This is important if your enemry isn't connected to you by railroads, or roads, or if he has entrenched defenses.

However...My biggest problems with the Alpine Horde(Which, admittedly, I didn't read until AFTER this was posted...) is that Alpine units are 2.5 times as expensive as fanatics(costing 50 shields, which, granted isn't a big deal if you're making 50 shields a turn....but if you're doing that, you should be building more expensive things anyway. )

And they use 1/3 movement point for every move they make.

Let's say I have a Vet Fanatic defending against a Vet Alpine.

5+50%=7.5 attack
vs 4+50%=6 defense

but, since the alpine is shooting over something besides a railroad to close, he has an attack of 5 vs the defense of 6.

And, most importantly.

20 Alpine troops:1000 shields
50 fanatics:1000 shields

The alpines will LOSE.

	12-12-2000 10:57									#4
	Got spare money?

Once you have adequate technology to rule the world why stay with a government that is based on scientific discovery? Fundamentalism makes the game more fun, because you can gain bottomless pockets (assuming your empire is fairly large), and the people keep their mouth shut. No boos and hissing, no worries about adjusting tax rates and luxuries! With Fundamentalism you can finally concentrate on what is most important anyway. World domination

------------------
I am the one you warned me of

	11-12-2000 23:12									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Like2frolic, the same 20 alpines behind city walls will probably hold out against all 50 fanatics. Depends on what you are trying to do which group works better. "Cheap is good," but lower in quality. "Numbers count," up to a point. Alpine hordes with a smattering of engineers and artillery will work quickly against all but fundamentalist governments. Not sure the same is true with fanatics in place of the alpines. I'm inclined to use the cities so captured, thus leaving improvements in place. Standing on them deprives a foe, leaving them available post the marching boots theme. I use fundamentalism when conquering in SP, but believe the game underestimates its stability. In reality such regimes seldom last two generations.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 11, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 11, 2000).]

	12-12-2000 00:51									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Something different about fundy that might be of interest, but what I haven't tried yet:
Wouldn't it be possible to combine the advantages of fundy and demo? If you celebrate WLT_D in fundy, you get the trade demo/rep provide without celebrating (+1 arrow per square). If you have CfC, colloseums in all your cities, MC & JBC and of course all of the trade & science improvements, the WLT_-days would provide much trade and youi wouldn't have to bother about your units outside of your cities. I tried it once in a game where my cities hadn't all of the improvements & wonders listed above. I needed 60% lux to celebrate in all of the big cities (size 20+). Didn't give my treasury & science much...
Has anyone tried this once? Do you think it might work better than just one of the governments? Just an idea...

	12-12-2000 07:55									#8
	Put an end to popups!

::Nods:: Problem with Tech running in Fundie is the game gives you a penalty.

Secondly....you're forgetting that a horder of 50 Fanatics can do something even cooler...
So, 20 guys hang out in a city. Big deal. Pillage everything in the city radius and pass by. They either come out and fight(at 2-1 odds, considering the unit differences...) or they stay there, and rot, while you conquer everything else.


If they only have 1 city left, and 20 Alpines in there, that means they can't build anything(due to support) and like I said before, you simply nuke a hard point, and waltz on in.

This isn't predicated on conquering cities which somebody else is wanting desperately to defend, it's predicated on crippling your opponent, and whipping through a massive city and killing all the Terrain improvements in one round will cripple any city.

Now...20 Alpines can't do that, because they can stay in the city...and you can keep 25 or so there, to keep an eye on em, and use the other 25 to munch his empire...and you don't have to worry about support.

	13-12-2000 02:48									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Drake, yes "overestimates" is correct.
Chainsaw, it's easier to use food caravans to grow in fundy than go for the representative gov't WLT_D.
Like2frolic, if I can get my hands on the multiplayer version, I'd love to go head to head on that. You might be very surprised by quality versus quantity results.
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 13, 2000).]

	13-12-2000 08:42									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

Blau, I'd be lucky to get out of Despotism before you beat me.

I'm a super newbie...I'm making this up as I go along, this thread is only to get more info on strategy.

I ~think~ this strat would work... And, what's more, if you're in democracy, you have to pay for your units, so keeping 20 in a city will cripple you, while my guys bounce about, eating your terrain improvements.

	13-12-2000 15:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

As a strong advocate of the fun in Fundy, I would like to praise the middle road.
The Fundamentalist unit is a wonderful defensive unit, can be used to produce an impenetrable screen to protect your cities from incoming spies and has a serious use for stripping strong points of their support, BUT doesn't quite have the umph to cut the mustard as a front line offensive unit - you need a vet on four legs to actually take down those cities.
That said, Fundamentalists make great orcs - and you can turn their hand to anything - they are so cheap, but Blau would have great fun eating them by the score if they made it to the front line....


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	13-12-2000 21:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Like2 frolic, fanatics do make great locusts, running about destroying improvements and getting in the way. Their presence in massive numbers can force opponents out of representative governments. Then the fundy can bribe their cities with all the money the happiness improvements now generate. I simply contend they are not a substitute for the alpine horde or the mechanized packages others have advocated for actually conquering the planet.

When going for the spaceship, I often switch to fundy long enough to make a bunch of the fanatics for defense against the inevitable once launch is made. I encourage you to try out your "horde" in real games, and let us know what you find.

	14-12-2000 10:13									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have tried the Horde in a real game, 2-3 in fact. Fanatics can't stand up to Howies(Nothing can. )

And I still stand by my idea, that 20 Fanatics can turn that city I can't (quite) conquer yet into a huge drain on your abilities. Try to keep a size 15 city with no terrain improvements..

Anyway, I've also found that I think I'm right...But it isn't great in a front line capacity. Don't throw Fanatics at a walled city, unless you use a spy to smash down the walls first.

Also....in Fundie, you can't make a Huge advantage in tech(well, it'll be Hard to, anyway) But you CAN keep even in tech. Simply conquer cities(via spies, swarms of tough units, etc) and Ta-Da! You have tech.

------------------
I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

	13-12-2000 23:29									#14
	Remove this text

I'll admit there's nothing more frustrating than leading the charge on tech, investing all those resoures to gain a commanding lead, only to have that lead marginalized by a few well timed spies (generally this is only really a problem on multiplayer, but I've known the computer to be quite a thief from time to time). I'll usually crank up tech to a few key ones militarily (Armor for example). Then cut it off completely, pumping up cash and just enough Lux, using that window of opportunity to wreck a little technologically advanced havok among the infidels. If they manage to steal again, catch up, and stay alive I can repeat the process, and I think the ability to dictate the pace of techs (by being the researcher, not the thief) gives a significant advantage to the tech leader, if the windows are properly exploited.

-Captain Psquire

	14-12-2000 09:11									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The AI is stealing Tech from me...LOTS of Tech.

I mean, as in, like 1 tech-turn, until my advantages evaportate. Ticks me off, too. My biggest problem is that I tried to invade the Cartha Continent, and they swarmed with Horseys...and took it back, so now I'm stuck, bombarding until I can pry an invasion force from one of my outher four fronts.

Anyway... Anyone have a better idea? I'm not saying that you should build JUST Fanatics...just that Fanatics can be very useful, if you build them in numbers, and use pathetic cities(which generate few shields/turn) to make them by the gross...

	16-12-2000 07:58									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Try ICS and demand tribute a whole lot. The ai will always give tribute if you have a huge military.

------------------
Go Redskins!

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com