28-11-2000 09:42									#1
	Pathetic Newbie tips? :) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi! I'm the Pathetic newbie. llo! Anyway, Lemme explain my problem, my solution, and beg for help.

I was playing Civ:2 ToT(Yeah, well, it had the nicest box and I knew it was civilization, so I bought it. I said I was a newbie. )

I was doing great, set it up on Bloodlust, was having a great time building up a big-nasty empire(Granted, I continually am at war with everyone I meet, but one assumes that that ~always~ happens)

The problem was, I was sick of war and wanted to end it, go to republic and jump a few lightyears ahead via Technology. My enemies didn't like that idea, thought instead I should keep fighting until the other, larger civs ate us all.

Well, in order to get peace, I had to either build a good navy to keep the Carthaginians in the North from moving in and Pillaging everything, and build defenses in my south, to keep the Persians from continually annoying me. The problem is, the Persians refuse to not be at war, I'd give em Money, or tech, one turn later they'd ask for more, I'd refuse..back at war.

I'm Winning the war, of course, but the AI doesn't realize that unless you take a city. So I had to take a city away. I Had Sun Tzu's and great Happiness wonders, I Built about 10 Vetern Knights(I Love Knights!) and sent em charging down to maim the enemy.

Lost every last one of them, too.

Now, the problem is this, my opponent has Great-wall. His Pikemen are butchering my nice, expensive soldiers, and generally stopping my advances into his empire, I don't have the money to make a full out diplomatic attack(Heck, if I switch to republic, I have a rioting public if I try to stay at war)

So, I decided to be nasty.

I got 3 Veteren Catapaults..Allow me to make a note. I HATE SLOW ARTILLARY! I like Legions, early on, cause they have the defense to shrug off an archer or warrior, or something, even if they are crummy offensively.

But Artillery(Catapaults, Cannon, Artillery, etc) are those 1 movers with high Offense and 1 defense, which means a warror can whack em.

Well, I decided to be a jerk, I took my Vetern Knights (defense 2+1) and moves em, and put the catapaults on top of em...stacking.

Now, if the enemy attacks, my highest defense(3) will defend for both. I then used my Catapaults absuurdly high(9!) attack, killed off the defenders, took the city, and ended the war.

Now, my questions: Any advice? How do ya'll handle an early military rush? I normally hate military fighting before gunpowder, because It's hard to take a city, but I really didn't have a choice in this case.

What should I have done?

	28-11-2000 11:25									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Actually taking cities early is a piece of cake. Vet troops, either crusadaders with pikemen, and roll up some pre worked settlers and bam instant fort. You can do the same with catapults as well. Let your defenders take the punishment while you bombard the hell out of the city. Early on the ai rarely has more than one good unit in its cities. Usually a phalanx/archer/legion, and a warrior. With Three vet attacking units, you should have no problems taking a city. Use a dip to scout the defenses just to make sure. If you can take advantage of a hill or mountain, even better as you stand an ever higher chance of success.

if you only have legions, btw on good defensive terrain, legions wreak havoc on pretty much anything early. Vet legions crush phalanxes and pikemen and generally take out archers and other legions unless on a river and vets.

combat before gunpowder is loads of fun, elephants are great as well. Elephants are the old chariots of civ, man i miss those chariots, but i love the roar the elephants make ever more.

	28-11-2000 18:09									#3
	Support Apolyton

If you plan on being aggressive in the early stages, The Great Wall becomes a key wonder. Not that you really need it to defend against the pathetic strategies that the AI uses, but you do need to keep it out of the hands of your primary opponent.
If you get beat to it, target that city! If it isn't his capital, save your money and just bribe it, and then take the rest of the empire by force. If it's his capital, vet crusaders or vet cats supported by defensive units can take out any early defensive unit since the AI rarely builds on good defensive squares.

Again, your wonders strategy should be fully integrated with your overall game plan. If you plan on being a war monger early, don't let them build the Great Wall

	28-11-2000 18:58									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why do you say that lkegions are pathetic attackers? A vet legion attacks just as well as a vet knight, and is available much earlier in the game. You can make legions before they make city walls, while they typically have walls by the time you can get knights. And if you need the 2 movement, you have elephants.

There are several windows of opportunity for attacking painlessly. One is before they get city walls. You can crush them with elephants and legions. The next is when you get dragoons and they do not have gunpowder. A vet dragoon can normally take out any 2-defense unit behind walls (7.5 attack, 2 hp versus 8 defense, 1 hp) The next window of opportinity is the units that ignore walls, like bombers, helicopters, and of course howies.

Outside those windows of opportunity, diplos and spys are almost always the cheaper way to conquer. I always get knights outside those windows of opportunity, so I find that they aren't that useful.

	28-11-2000 20:41									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Apart from the defensive attributes of the Great Wall, which makes taking ai cities more difficult (not impossible, by any means), the "must offer peace or cease fire" attribute can also be problematic if the ai civ that has it is your neighbor and primary target. Keep breaking cease fires and peace treaties and you'll quickly be fighting non-stop wars on all fronts. Experienced players won't care, but if you're moving up the learning curve, it's nice to have a compass direction or two that are reasonably peaceful, thus offering room for expansion and/or trade.

	28-11-2000 21:53									#6
	Support Apolyton

. Also note that PIKEMEN double their defense factor against cavarly. Attack cities with stack of inf/artillery attackers, inf defender, and preferably a "pre worked" settlor to make a fort, or attack from def terrains next to the target.

------------------
Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

	29-11-2000 10:00									#7
	Suffering from ads?

. My 2nd favorite method (after eliminating their civ)for dealing with irritating wave attack from a implacable land AI neighbor is the "trap is here, please enter and die" routine. Find their route of approach, funnel it by road bulding (once the AI discovers the road it will not bypass it) to a mountain with a fort and a few defense units, and watch the bodies of the attackers pile up higher than the moutain you are sitting on.

------------------
Gauis Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

	29-11-2000 01:15									#8
	Tired of ads?

is my p0ost invisible ? i thought i stated much of this already anyways seems as if we all understand how to take out the inept ai

	29-11-2000 03:24									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Legions do suck pretty badly on the attack...not because of a low attack ability, but because of low movement. You can sally on up next to the city and -ta-da....they attack you.

::shrug:: it's a pain.

These are great things...I have to try that "trap" thing.

I'm willing to admit that combat-pre-GP is fun, but it's also HARD.

If the enemy has 2 Phalanxes and city walls, and you have Sun Tzu's and Knights, they have 2 units of
2+1+4+1(if veteren)7-8 for Phalanx, 10 for veteren pikemen.
vs your attack of 6.(and that's assuming that you're using Veterns....and you should be, dagnabbit!)

You're likely to lose Attackers on a 2-1 ratio....keeping in mind that your attacking units are more expensive than the other guys defenses.

See the problem? Assuming anything like equality(and keeping in mind my pathetic newbie-status, I always have something I need to have BUILT) it tends to be hard to have a large scale war on any but the most local levels without crippling your capacity to advance your civilization.

Thanks for the ideas, By the way! Any more bright ideas on how to keep the other-guys from annoying my (Now republican) civ?

------------------
I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

	29-11-2000 03:29									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh Yeah, and keep in mind the generally pathetic nature of your empire, i9f they have 2 Phalanx, it'll take 4-6 Knights(More if not vet!) to dig them out....6 Knights is a pretty distinctive force all on there own...and hard to replace, especially if the other side has several Cities.

	29-11-2000 19:10									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

First, it's kind of silly to send out a bunch of non vet knights. If you are going to spend the shields to build them, you are better off building a barracks first, and building one less knight.

Second, as long as they don't have city walls, Vet knights can take out any early unit. Sure, you will lose a few, but who cares. If you are trying to take cities, it is worth the cost

You can't be afraid to lose units... they can always be rebuilt...

	30-11-2000 09:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

::Noddle:: Agreed, I can replace my Knights.....but I'd rather not.

The simple fact is, it is less efficient to conquer a prepared opponent than to build cities all on your own, because settlers are more useful(they can make cities, after all) than Knights.

So, if I have to get involved in a war, it's going to reduce my ability to grow my civ, simply because those turns when I'm building Knights is a turn when I'm not building a settler, or a Temple, or Marketplace.

I need advice. ::Pout:: I know that given enough time, I can build my treasury to the point where I can simply bribe his cities away, I've done it before on a lower difficulty level, the problem is(aside from that being too easy, of course)that I am at war ~now~ and while I think that I can defeat my neighbors, I don't want to, because other civs are strong already, and getting stronger, I want to get to the point where I can find and pounce the opposition with superior weapons, but I can't do that because the Carthaginians and Persians continually are at war with me, killing my settlers, pillaging my roads, etc.

I'm more than holding my own, I ~am~ winning the war, and haven't taken any serious damage in the last few turns, and the persians have decided to be a little less...aggressive...after I took a city. My only problem is the Carthaginians and the navy they are still using to kill my triremes, and send soldiers to pillage my stuff(which slows me down further, cause I have to divert settlers back to ~repairing~ it)

------------------
I dunno. I think nukes are cool..If you're the only one who has em.

	30-11-2000 15:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

War comes when expansion is thwarted or existance is threatened. Civ is about expansion, when your piece of real estate is full of cities - your piece of real estate just expanded to include that previously known as his piece of real estate - call on the Empire to produce 1 vet (Knight/Crusader/Elephant whgatever grabs you) per city - pour result into your new piece of real estate - repeat until no real estate left. Simple, foolproof, works every time.

Note - last week Berlin (walled, two Wonder city with bl**dy Musketeers - at least one must have been vet) took out 14 vet Crusaders before succumbing, the rest of Germany cost less than 2K gold - fortunately, the Grand Fleet had 15 vet Triremes, 6 Diplomats and 24 vet Crusaders.

Good civin'

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	09-12-2000 00:05									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Like2frolick,

It's good to know whether you're going for conquest or research in the early game. It seems from your posts that you're going for a peaceful, tech-oriented early game. In this case (unless your opponent only has a couple cities) you're correct that an early war will cripple your tech research. I wouldn't have suggested trying to take over the Persians nor beat them into submission. Either would have meant a long and costly price for peace. (Not that early conquest is impossible or a bad idea, just that doesn't seem to fit your plan of build up then attack in the late game with superiority.)

I would have suggested you take Lefty Scaevola's trap idea. You probably already knew where the Persians were marching in from. It's amazing how just a couple good units in a mountain (or hill) fortress will keep an enemy civilization at bay for millennia. The AI just doesn't learn nor even try a different route. The cost of a fortress or two with a couple of defenders isn't too great and you generally don't even need to replace the defenders. The Persians might never have made peace with you, but they also wouldn't have been a threat.

As for the Carthaginians, I'm impressed that the AI is continually boating in military units to pillage your land. I don't think I've encountered an AI that intelligent before. You might be able to set up fortresses along your coast. Since you're a republic now, make sure that your fortresses are inside city radii. I've found that AI military units can't resist attacking your units and fortresses no matter what the odds. Escorting settlers with military units might be too costly happiness-wise but some well placed fortresses should divert the Carthaginians before they get to your settlers.

Otherwise you may have to put up with their interference and leave some land undeveloped until you can build a decent navy. I fear you'll have to stop sending triremes into Carthaginian waters (and maybe this means all waters) until you have naval superiority.

You might be able to pay another civ or two to declare war on the Carthaginians to take some heat off of your coast. Since port facilities are in the distant future, you might want the Lighthouse to make some vet ships (or is Sun Tsu's Academy doing this already?). Vet ships should help turn the naval warfare tide in your direction.

In short, don't let them goad you into attacking them. Accept war as your continual relationship status and build some defenses for them to knock their heads against.

	10-12-2000 11:14									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

::Wasn't aware it was possible to really conquer anybody without building up tech...::

	13-12-2000 23:50									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

L2F, some of these folks conquer the world before industrialization. So it must be possible to do it without later techs. Darned if I can figure it out, though. Of course, since I've not thought it possible, I've switched to the agressive research track (hit 'em when you can, stay ahead in science). So, with what I've learned here, maybe we can try again.

	14-12-2000 02:47									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Blaupanzer thats the key exactly. Beating on the ai, is all about taking key advantages. Slam them with Knights, dips, and crusaders, form a battle line with your muskets , dragoons and cannons. When on large maps take advantage of artillery, alpines, calvalry, and super ironclads. In the final stages, tanks , howies, spies (really alot earlier)battleships, bombers and nukes. Keep laying a beating on the ai, preferable taking out one civ at a time, eventually though, they will all gang up on you and the best way to avoid the invasions is by controlling the seas and the choke points while amassing a well planned army.

	14-12-2000 04:21									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One of the posts above may have eluded to this but:
Take a capital city even if it is very costly in units, then bribe away at a cool bargain rate! The only planning involved is to save 1-2 grande and have a decent envasion force to take the capital. Depending on how early, chariots, elephants, or even legions will do it! Vets? Of course!

	14-12-2000 09:06									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Super IronClads?

	14-12-2000 14:34									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Build the Lighthouse and Magellan's, and your ironclads have a movement of seven (regular four plus one for the Lighthouse plus two for Magellan's) and are vets. Kick ass, even non-vet musketeers can't stand these nice ships.

	14-12-2000 14:38									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

To build the Super Ironclad you must have The Lighthouse and Magellan. Your research target is Steam Engine.

Under these conditions you can enjoy Ironclads which start as Vets and move 7. Use them quickly, and build fleets of them! This is the howitzer of the middle game as they (like all offensive ships) ignore city walls. The Super Ironclad window of opportunity can be a small time frame, as the AI knows the path to Magnetism and Metallurgy.

--------------

SG (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 14, 2000).]

	14-12-2000 19:40									#23
	Remove this text

L2F
Any vet ironclad is super (because it ignores city walls and stands a fair chance even against non vet riflemen).
But:
1) The LH makes all ironclads vets (building LH before your first ironclad) and gives them movement 5 instead of 4.
2) Sun Tzu make any ironclad vet after one fight (finding a trireme or a settler or a cat along your enemy's coast is a good idea before attacking the strongly defended city).
3) Magellan gives 6 moves instead of 4.
4) LH + Magellan give the super super vet with 7 moves(hello SG, hello Ming!).
In any case I would advise to use a fleet (at least 2; preferably 5 or 6). Firing several shots in a row, your ironclad will indeed kill defenders but it will soon get yellow or even red, and it takes a long time to get back to the nice green color that allows your superclad to shoot again at full strength.

	15-12-2000 06:27									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

I like that phrase, "super ironclad."

	16-12-2000 04:08									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been gone from the site for a long time and noticed your post. I will not claim to be an expert but I can give you a few newbie tips.

I'm not sure who said it but diplomats/spies are very good at weakening your enemies but are useless against the great wall. But by the time you have spies the great wall is obsolete and there is a chance that you can reuse a spy. Spies are great if you have alot of cash as well. Just keep subverting cities. It is my attack method of choice and I've reduced all other civs to just their capitals using this method.

Republic is good for tech and for growth. If you set your taxes to 20%, science to 40% and luxuries to 40% you can get size 8 cities easily (and size 12 if you upgrade to Democracy.) I find it better to leave cities at size 8 or 12 because you don't have to worry about happiness with these tax rates. Put a pikeman in the city with your best attack unit and a city wall, temple marketplace, library and city wall(even if you have great wall, it doesn't last forever and you don't want to be caught unaware. Then if you build Adam Smith you can start with banks and aqueducts. But I get ahead of myself. Fortify your defender but only put your attack unit a sleep so when an enemy gets close your unit is ready to attack!

This is my stratagey for Republic. It is new and I'm refining it but it seems to work well.


------------------
Kitana
Shogun of the Japanese

	16-12-2000 06:11									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Am I the only one here who never uses dips/spies to buy cities? The only time I ever use them is when a Barb takes one of my new baby cities - where I like to "believe" that my covert agent has organized a resistance against the terrorist occupiers.

I dunno, I just think that buying cities compromises the realism aspect.

------------------
"You're fired." - Jack Larkin

	16-12-2000 10:48									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't bribe much either, and to tell you the truth, I hope that that feature goes away with civ3. i can see bribing a unit, but a city - come on. I prefer to use my cash to rush build crusaders, cavalry and wonders and win early.

	16-12-2000 10:53									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I just reread my post and it sounded a little arrogant. What I said was my strategy. I didn't mean to give the impression that bribing is cheating or anything. And I'm sure there are a lot of players in here that win early by incorporating bribing into their gameplan.

	16-12-2000 18:43									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In terms of realism, you can think of "bribing" cities as your dip/spy organizing resistance (funneling lawyers, guns, and money) to dissidents in the competing civ. Think about Soviet support of the Sandanista rebels in Nicaraugua in the 70's/80's or US support of military factions in Chile back in the 50's. Go even further back to WWII when the Germans rolled into Paris. A lot of the French cities just kind of rolled over after that with very little military resistance.

I like to throw the occasional bribed city into my military conquest, particularly if I'm running out of troops and there's a fat city with more inside just ahead. This is particularly useful in the late game for picking up cruise missiles since the AI loves to make em. I think of it as captured equipment being used against it's makers.

One more thing. In CTP, the "bribed" city does not join your civ, it becomes a new civ that typically hates the old civ but likes your civ. That might be a somewhat more realistic world model.


------------------
What the hell is Seat Management?