13-08-2001 22:50									#31
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Timers are a necessary evil,

a 400 turns game at 4 players at 1 1/2min /turn equates to a 40 hours game plus connection time.

In my experience with MGE, players takes even more time without a timer. A lot of peoples don't care for Civ multiplayer and I have no problem with that but for me it is the ultimate experience.

	13-08-2001 22:53									#32
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I have hosted close to 1000 games and have never used the timer. Between lag/disconnects and family details that come up, it would make things inconvienent. If a player plays too slow, just avoid playing with them in the future.
And in my experience, using a timer never really made the game move faster. Better resolution of combat related issues using simul turns will however. (keeps fingers crossed)

A chess type timer falls into the same catagory if not worse. The thought of someone saving up time for future moves, really disturbs me. A turn takes what it takes. If I need 20 minutes for a specific turn to launch a 10 city attack, so be it. Everyone (but one )will understand.

RAH

	13-08-2001 23:54									#33
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If you don't like timers don't use them, it's fine by me.

If Simultaneous Turns is included i can't wait to try it, it will be a great new game.

All i am asking is the opportunity to play a regular game of Civ at a fast pace (30 to 45 seconds a turn).

	14-08-2001 00:34									#34
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You don't need timers to move at that pace. In most of our games (4 players) early turns rotate in 2 minutes or less (can't even sneak out for smoke). Once trade is discovered, it gets a little longer. If war breaks out, a little longer. No one can be expected to move 20-30 units in 30-45 seconds. And if you need to move 20-30 units, you need to move 20-30 units. Unless we have someone slow, most turns will cycle in less than 6 minutes.
After A.D. it gets longer, but it should.

The thing that makes the timer a bane is that it doesn't move while doing begining of turn city maint. (which encourages people to do it). ARGGGGGGGGGG.

NO TIMERS.

RAH

	14-08-2001 01:22									#35
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I am not sure i understand you're last sentence, yes i do most of my city management while it's not my turn to play.

Of course if you move 20-30 units every turn without a goto command then 45 seconds a turn is not achievable but aniway I only gave it as a frame of reference. What is important is that the system as proven itself in chess since the late XIX century.

You're argument that you don't need a timer because you play fast is the same one use by every non tournament chess player until they get to play chess tournaments. I have heard it countless times in my 20 years of Chess and Speed Chess tournament experience.

The point is that if you really do play fast then having the timer won't make ANY difference for you, you will be in excess of time from the beginning of the game until the end. It will only make a difference for players that don't play fast.

But If you want to play a game with friends at a leisurly pace then by all means do play a game without a timer and everibody will be happy.

	14-08-2001 02:16									#36
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Whenever I have played on a timer, when your turn starts and the city notices come up, I noticed that I could do some city maintaince activities without it counting against the clock. I then noticed that other peoples turns were starting and the clock wasn't. I later found out they were doing city maintiance. (I hope that was clearer)

If I'm in the middle of a turn or inbetween turns and my wife or daughter need my attention I give it. It doesn't happen often but most of the people I play with sometimes have family emergencies during a game also. We all understand. I've never seen that happen in a chess tournament, so it's not a fair comparison here.

And the timer itself is a system overhead that takes additional resources and bandwidth. (not much but greater than 0 which means it slows the game down itself)

"But If you want to play a game with friends at a leisurly pace "
A bad troll, which means you haven't read my posts carefully enough. Try rereading them and show me where I stated that I liked playing at a leisurly pace. We avoid slow players.

RAH

	14-08-2001 07:54									#37
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I like the idea of a Chess timer as well. If they can include it as an option, then why not? If you don't like it, then you simply don't use it.

If they do implement a Chess timer, I hope they could add another option : allow the host to limit the total number of accumulated minutes. I don't like the idea of someone saving their minutes to conduct a 15 hour turn all for themselves. Again, I stress OPTION. Putting a cap on both ends of the time spectrum will stress (and reward) good time management on both ends of the spectrum.

	14-08-2001 07:59									#38
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------------------------------------------------------------------
Whenever I have played on a timer, when your turn starts and the city notices come up, I noticed that I could do some city maintaince activities without it counting against the clock. I then noticed that other peoples turns were starting and the clock wasn't. I later found out they were doing city maintiance. (I hope that was clearer)
------------------------------------------------------------------

We know for a fact that Civ III will not pop up windows like Civ II did so I don't think this is relevant.

I understand about family emergencies and this is a valid point you raise, it could be adressed by each players having a certain number of time out he can use during a game, beyond that he can use time he as accumulated from previous turns.

I really doubt the increase of data traffic is any meaningfull, it would not even be necessary to transmit the amount of time each player took at every turn, only at the beginning and at the end of a game session.

Sorry if i have offended you, it's just because i have bad experience with players hatefull of timers.

	14-08-2001 08:11									#39
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I would not worry to much about somebody accumulating an hour and then using it on the same turn. First this player would have to play extremely fast every other turns (wich is good), he would not have reserve left for the remainder of the game and it's just not very logical unless of course this person as some family emergencies....

	14-08-2001 09:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Rasputin how did it know if movement paths crossed , the timing of move sin simul can cause units to intercept or not depneding on which units the players move at which time

There are many ways to handle this. The easiest is to give each unit an initiative value. Higher initiative units move first, ties resolved randomly.

	14-08-2001 17:51									#41
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Daniel Frappier, no problem. Slow play almost killed MP after if first came out. We tried a lot of things to speed it up before we realized that it's the people, not the game. It's not like chess where you spend all your time thinking about what to do and then move one piece. You usually know what you're doing (the fast players do anyway) but it takes time to physically move the multiple pieces.

I'm not against timer's as much as how some people use them. I've seen people that believe that if there's a 90 second timer then by gosh they'll use 90 seconds whether they need it or not. If a person is so slow that a timer is all that keeps him moving, we avoid playing those people.

And finally, when the **** hits the fan in the end game, and the game is going to be decided over the next 3 turns, those turns can take considerable time, but the game will be over.

Chris, I agree in general with your concept. A randomizer would be sufficient for me. If they work the bugs out of the simul in CIVII. Timers won't be an issue. But it will be harder to sneak in those smokes between turns.

RAH

	14-08-2001 19:07									#42
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all very valid points and if there was no extra effort to place this option int ociv for those that want a fast game rather than a well thought out game then put it in.

I find that most games i tried playing in that had a timer, when you asked for more time to complete a turn 90% of the time some one voted no and said "live with it" so needless to say i no longer play if i see a timer activated.

the only benifit of a timer is if someone falls asleep during their turn and then oyu are stuck forever waiting for them, (this occured in on cross timezone game i played in)

i guess the problem for the game designers is that there isnt one particular type of person who palys civ. I play it because it is TBS not RT. I paly it because you have to think . I paly it because it is FUN. For all those reasons I am willing to dedicate weeks/months/years of my life to palying a good game, if it takes 40 hours to finiosh so be it. Any game of civ 2 MP tha tfinishes in one session would seem to me to be somehow contrived finish not a real finish IMHO....