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The Undertaker
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Manitoba
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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I know that Civ ain't the most realistic game in the world, but I think bribing cities is the least realistic feautre. Think about it, we would have won the Cold War in the 50's - we just would have bribed all of those Eastern European Countries' cities! I just don't like it!
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"You're fired." - Jack Larkin
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Undertaker on 12-16-2000 10:06 PM
I know that Civ ain't the most realistic game in the world, but I think bribing cities is the least realistic feautre. Think about it, we would have won the Cold War in the 50's - we just would have bribed all of those Eastern European Countries' cities! I just don't like it!
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I bribe like crazy, because I like to play as a wealthy democracy, and bribery allows me to get territory without making people unhappy. As it happens, I think of this as a very realistic strategy; we (the U.S.) spent a lot of time during the cold war using our intelligence ageny to subvert the governments of other countries and put the people we liked into power (Iran, Chile, various African nations, etc.) -- without making the (largely unknowing, granted) public unhappy. Maybe Communism, like Democracy, should be immune to bribery, though.
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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited December 17, 2000).]
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The Undertaker
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Manitoba
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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Sure it would have been easy (and was - Czechoslovakia 60's, Poland 80's) to cause revolts, etc., but for them to join your civ? No way! Imagine "Prague, USA" or "Gdansk, Canada", its just not feasable.
But on the other hand, had the nasty Red Menace secretly constructed a city on the shores of our continent, then I could possibly see a revolt. But then again - wouldn't the city be full of spies and KGB agents? As much as I hate CTP, thier model of bribing is the perfect one.
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Albert B
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Indianapolis, IN USA
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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Undertaker, it's all a matter of perspective. There is more than one way to look at expansion and conquest. For example: (no I'm not a history guru, but I'll play one in this post...)
1. Pure conquest - For example, Greece was expanded to incude most of the Mediterranean area under Alexander the Great; Rome covered massive amounts of area in Europe and the Mediterranean at its height, etc.
2. Colonization - During the height of the English empire (in the days of "the sun never sets..."), although England held lots and lots of land, all of it was not considered England itself. For example, I don't believe cities were refered to as Boston, England or Delhi, England. But rather India was still called India, it was just under contol of England.
3. "Zone of Control" (for lack of a better phrase off the top of my head) - Which would include the Soviet "empire" after WWII. Although Poland and Czechoslovakia retained their own names (unlike Estonia, Latvia, etc) they were still very much under Soviet control (or influence if you prefer). Also, although force was definatly an influence, a lot of their control was originally gained because of the poor economic situation of these war torn countries and a little help (i.e. 'bribery) went a long way.
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The Undertaker
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Manitoba
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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I don't think that its ever been hard to take a French city......
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"You're fired." - Jack Larkin
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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Undertaker
It seems that you should perhaps read a few lines about WWI for a start...
But if your post meant to be focused on the subject of bribing blue cities, then I have no evidence that they are easier to bribe than any other.
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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The Undertaker
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Manitoba
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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I meant it as a quasi joke. However, the reality is that Canadians, British, and Americans have liberated the French two times in the last century! They cannot defend themselves, no matter what they think. Remember the Maginot Line? Wow, that stopped the Germans cold. Or should I remind you of your noble WWII government - Vichy France ring a bell?
Don't tell me to read about Wars where tens of thousands of Canadians were killed liberating you people. Dieppe, Ypres, Normandy, Flanders, the list goes on. The French are a weak people, oh wait, except for Napoleon. Yeah, he was great - Russia kicked his ass and the "French Empire" crumbled in what, a matter of years? And don't tell me "the winter won" because it didn't, a moronic general lost. The French have never been a factor on the world stage, besides from getting good English boys killed.
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Undertaker on 12-19-2000 06:44 PM
I meant it as a quasi joke. However, the reality is that Canadians, British, and Americans have liberated the French two times in the last century! They cannot defend themselves, no matter what they think. Remember the Maginot Line? Wow, that stopped the Germans cold. Or should I remind you of your noble WWII government - Vichy France ring a bell?
Don't tell me to read about Wars where tens of thousands of Canadians were killed liberating you people. Dieppe, Ypres, Normandy, Flanders, the list goes on. The French are a weak people, oh wait, except for Napoleon. Yeah, he was great - Russia kicked his ass and the "French Empire" crumbled in what, a matter of years? And don't tell me "the winter won" because it didn't, a moronic general lost. The French have never been a factor on the world stage, besides from getting good English boys killed.
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If your first post was a quasi joke, it seems to me that you should have stopped there, since this one is both ridiculous and insulting.
This will be my one and only answer since this forum is aimed at exchanging ideas about a great game called civ2, and not sending insulting posts to one another about the world's history.
1) Your first post was about taking french cities.
Have you ever heard of Verdun? My uncle was there and he told me a lot about it when I was a young boy. It remains in my memory as the best description of Hell.
My reference book states that 335 000 german and 360 000 french soldiers lost their lives there and the city remained french. Think of that! Over 700 000 lives lost for nothing.
2) I am no great admirer of conquerors in general and Napoléon in particular, but the truth is that I don't know of many foreign armies having conquered Moscow and leaving the city afterwards without being compelled by any Russian attack.
3) If WW1 and WW2 are named world wars, there are probably some good reasons for that. I am very glad for the canadians that no fighting happened to take place in America, but, believe me, it was not a great pleasure for the french people to have a lot of the fighting at home.
4) As far as my own family is concerned, my father was killed fighting hard in 1940 and my uncle was sent to concentration camp a few years later after having fought the nazis as a partisan. Don't tell me too loud that old story about all frenchmen being in favour of Vichy.
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Maelhavok
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Seattle,Wa. USA
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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Editorial:
Opinions are like a**holes,everybodies got one. If this one smells to bad take your nose out.
I have seen war. I remember friends that didn't come home. I don't know WHY. I do know that men fight, and men die. Scared,proud,angry,hopeful men. Men with families. Men with beliefs. No French. No Americans. No Canadians. Just men in HELL trying to do the best with what they've got. When they get home they deal with it. STOP PICKING SCABS!! The holidays for Christsakes. I can't believe that any army was much different than my experiences, my fathers or grandfathers. Your fathers and grandfathers. May they rest in peace.
No Appologies
For the Dead Rebels
Michael Maelhavok
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Blaupanzer
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Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 00:12
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Not sure of the point, I fear. I've been there, it's madness. What has this to do with games? Secondly, what scabs are we picking? Third, the holidays are about real world peace, not computer peace. Lastly, this game does permit an alternative, unlike virtually any other history-related game on the market. Ease up, join us in the fun.
[This message has been edited by Blaupanzer (edited December 23, 2000).]
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Matthew
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Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Concerning the French:
The United States of America is the greatest power on Earth, and likely will be for some time to come. And it was the French who, over two centuries ago, helped to make this possible by liberating us from England. Granted, their motives were not altruistic, but they did fight with us for our liberty. And we did need them.
True, the French had problems defending themselves against Germany in 2 world wars and the Franco-Prussian war. But let's put this in perspective.
1. Germany has about twice the population of France.
2. In world war I Germany never controlled all that much of France, and with the form warfare had taken by that time, probably would have stopped the German advance on their own, although they certainly would still have needed help in taking it back.
3. In the beginning of world war II the other democracies suffered from most of the same weaknesses that the French did: A misunderstanding of the form the next war would take and a basic unwillingness to stand up for themselves and their friends. The French suffered from only one glaring weakness that they didn't share with the U.S. and England: They were right next to Germany.
4. Almost everyone else thought that the Maginot line would work too. In fact, it may well have, had Belgium and the Netherlands completed their portions of the Fortifications.
I usually play in no city bribe games. I would prefer to do other wise if their were more means to defend against the city bribe, especially early on. As it is, it's too unbalancing.
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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Thank you Maelhavok.
Thank you Matthew.
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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Blaupanzer
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Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 00:12
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Sorry I missed the point earlier.
The fact that WWI was fought on French soil hardly means "the allies bailed them out." They took the brunt and survived until their allies had time to contribute.
In WWII, the French (and British for that matter) were outmaneuvered by the Germans. The Ardennes was "impassable." "Everyone knew" that, except the Germans. This type of strategic error is usually impossible to recover from, but hardly establishes the nature of the troops themselves.
One hundred years before WWI, it was the French who were the dominant land power. Once it was the Romans. Time changes, but as Maelhavok noted, the men at the front are just men, not nationalities, not philosophies. So avoid the cheap shots, folks.
In the meantime, I stick to my other point, when civ units go down, no mothers cry, no widows mourn, no chidren are orphaned. Much cleaner this way.
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17-12-2000 03:39
)
) I would have stopped after two and bribed but it was the capital. I bribed a smaller city and took a couple cities. I found it nice to already have defense in the city. Granted I could just move my phalanx in from my attack stack...
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