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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:15
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I can't believe an arguement can be made that involves a game that isn't even out yet. 
Anyways, just some points........
1. Someone mentioned a 500 page list. If Civ2 and the Civ series is so good, then why the need for 500 pages of suggestions/bug-fixes/changes? From what I can see, Civ3 is just Civ2 with a couple of changes/fixes/additions.
2. Mention of having to change strategies when Civ3 comes out. Oh, and how long will it take everyone to figure out the AI and end up kicking it's butt all the time? Then everyone will be complaining about how Civ3's AI is useless.
3. And since not ALL the 500 pages as mentioned in point 1 will not be in Civ3, and that everyone will eventually be kicking Civ3's AI butt, the modders will start coming out with mods to make it as they want it to be. Where will we be at that time? The same place we are with Civ2 and CTP1/2. A Civ3 game that outa the box is easy to beat, and needs modding to provide a challanging game.
Hmmm........... so basically, what's going to happen is 6 months after Civ3 is out everyone is going to be complaining about problems, bugs, changes they want, etc and the modders are going to need to fix Civ3 as well. One really good thing in favour of Civ3 is that Firaxis will most likely post any patches needed to the game, not like Activision. To me, I can see Civ3 coming down to the same level as Civ2 & CTP1/2 is at now. So really, I'm not going to make an opinion about which I prefer, except that "I can play CTP2 now and have modded it (Apolyton Pack) so that it provides me a good game."
Oh, and I'm STILL going to have a massive army of settlers/engineers on the board having to move 500 of them each turn, just to make a road. 
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I can't believe an arguement can be made that involves a game that isn't even out yet.
Anyways, just some points........
1. Someone mentioned a 500 page list. If Civ2 and the Civ series is so good, then why the need for 500 pages of suggestions/bug-fixes/changes? From what I can see, Civ3 is just Civ2 with a couple of changes/fixes/additions. |
SEQUALS do tend to be like that
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2. Mention of having to change strategies when Civ3 comes out. Oh, and how long will it take everyone to figure out the AI and end up kicking it's butt all the time? Then everyone will be complaining about how Civ3's AI is useless. |
ya? well if ctps AI can beat you thats pretty sad...
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3. And since not ALL the 500 pages as mentioned in point 1 will not be in Civ3, and that everyone will eventually be kicking Civ3's AI butt, the modders will start coming out with mods to make it as they want it to be. Where will we be at that time? The same place we are with Civ2 and CTP1/2. A Civ3 game that outa the box is easy to beat, and needs modding to provide a challanging game. |
excuse me but do you own the game? no! well than stop acting like you do!
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Hmmm........... so basically, what's going to happen is 6 months after Civ3 is out everyone is going to be complaining about problems, bugs, changes they want, etc and the modders are going to need to fix Civ3 as well. One really good thing in favour of Civ3 is that Firaxis will most likely post any patches needed to the game, not like Activision. To me, I can see Civ3 coming down to the same level as Civ2 & CTP1/2 is at now. So really, I'm not going to make an opinion about which I prefer, except that "I can play CTP2 now and have modded it (Apolyton Pack) so that it provides me a good game." |
are you a fortune teller? I find it intresting how you haven't (couldn't have if your saying this) looked at civ3, but already can say it sucks.
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Oh, and I'm STILL going to have a massive army of settlers/engineers on the board having to move 500 of them each turn, just to make a road. |
i like that, its a prefference, not everyone is like you (thank god)!
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Xerxes2
... can't make roses from crap, eh? You must not be a gardener. A little horses**t on the roses does wonders. |
good point, very funny 
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I JUST got CTP2 working on my machine. I bought it when it came out and spent about $1300 US to get it working, with no success. I finally did an upgrade of my video board and voila! it works. And I'm having fun with it now. I did use the mods I've found for which anyone who worked on one of them and reads this, Thanks for all your time and effort. |
they did a good job but you cant make roses from dirt (j/k) but seriusly, they really shouldn't have to, ive looked at the script and its REALLY confusing and needs heavy testing, that was the programers job.
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I am one of those who are waiting with bated breath for the RELEASE. When it comes I'll be right down standing in line with the rest of you. Having said that, I note that the ONLY game which has stood the real test of time is SMAC/SMAX. I've played them since they came out and still waste entirely too much time playing SMAX. |
Ditto
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I note that those games which were not successful did teach things to the programmers who created them. The level of gameplay has steadily advanced. Those who rail at the AI lack should try to create an AI which does the job. It isn't as easy as it looks. And if we in the programmer community could really create something so much better it would be in there, you bet. |
yes, like i said its a *****, no game has a REALLY good AI.
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Remember that all game development is a trade-off between better code and the money which that code must generate. I do NOT rail at the game developers. It's their bread and butter we're talking about. I think if they COULD do so much better they WOULD. |
best point ive heard yet, but Crativision could have done MUCH better, there just lazy asses
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
[QUOTE] Your comment has no relevance to my point about the Civ3 AI becoming useless in the sense that everyone will get used to it and find ways to beat it. Hmmm....... that's similar to the Civ2 AI. Oh, and CTP1's AI. Oh yeah, and CTP2's AI!  |
im just saying thats what happens to all games, its human nature to study your enemy and learn its weak points
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No, I don't own Civ3........ YET. And why? Because it's not out yet. And for the EXACT same reason, how can you keep going on as if Civ3 is God's gift to man?  No one knows what it's going to be like. Oh, and don't throw "But Sid is writing it!" at me. He's had some really good games, and some really bad games. Saying that would prove an infantile point on your behalf. |
sid isn't writing it dumbass, and im not saying its gods gift to man, you just seem to make completly unsupported remarks about a game that isn't out yet.
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I'm not "fortune telling", I'm basing my comments on the current trends. EG. Civ2 outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP1 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). SMAC/SMAX outa the box needs modding to make Diety harder (I can beat it easily). CTP2 outa the box needs modding to make Impossible harder (I can beat it easily). Why is it unreasonable to say that Civ3 outa the box will need modding to make Diety harder? |
and when did i say it was gona be harder??
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Haven't look at Civ3? I'm well into Civ3:
- From THIS thread, 10-08-2001 15:59
- I'm on the Firaxis Civ3 mailing list.
- I regularly read through the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I infrequently post in the ACS Civ3 forums.
- I kept up-to-date on http://www.firaxis.com/civ3 site.
- I'll be waiting in line with everyone else to pick up a copy when it's released.
Not "looked" at Civ3? I'm WELL into Civ3! |
1- point being?? you can get all that info on the site
2- your saying that you follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like, thats not all that helpful
3- WOW! i meen, you must know everything now
4- and that helps you info' wise, how??
basically-
1, 2, 3, 4. are the same thing, you only need to do one
5- is errelevent
so by now were back we we started 
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:15
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quote:
im just saying thats what happens to all games, its human nature to study your enemy and learn its weak points
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Not all games. SSI has a good reputation for an AI that stands the test and provides continuously difficult games to master. Take Imperialism 2 for example.
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sid isn't writing it dumbass, and im not saying its gods gift to man, you just seem to make completly unsupported remarks about a game that isn't out yet.
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I know Sid's not writing it. Hence why I said not to throw it at me. You do seem to believe Civ3 is God's gift to man. You are pinning all your hopes and wishes on a sequal to a fantastic game (Civ2) and won't accept the point that some of us in the world actually enjoy CTP2 and believe it stands on it's own as a good game. Aside from the fact that a LOT of sequals are crap! And my remarks are based on "current trends" as I mentioned in my post. Read it! "Current trends" are universally recognised in debates as supporting evidence.
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and when did i say it was gona be harder??
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This is the basis of the entire thread! If the game is harder then gameplay value is higher, continually playing the game to beat the AI makes the game have higher repeat-play, and the challenge to win is more fun!
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1- point being?? you can get all that info on the site
2- your saying that you follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like, thats not all that helpful
3- WOW! i meen, you must know everything now
4- and that helps you info' wise, how??
basically-
1, 2, 3, 4. are the same thing, you only need to do one
5- is errelevent
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If you had actually READ what you wrote then you would've picked up that I was showing that I HAVE looked at Civ3. See your own comments......
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I find it intresting how you haven't (couldn't have if your saying this) looked at civ3
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On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up.
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dale
I know Sid's not writing it. Hence why I said not to throw it at me. You do seem to believe Civ3 is God's gift to man. You are pinning all your hopes and wishes on a sequal to a fantastic game (Civ2) and won't accept the point that some of us in the world actually enjoy CTP2 and believe it stands on it's own as a good game. Aside from the fact that a LOT of sequals are crap! And my remarks are based on "current trends" as I mentioned in my post. Read it! "Current trends" are universally recognised in debates as supporting evidence.
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again, where did i say it was gods gift to man?? im aware it might not be perfect, but i know it will be better than ctp, a game that wont work without being modded is not a game. wesses medmod can be considered its own game, just as cradle, and apoliton, these are not mods, a mod is somthing that you play to change the game A LITTLE, not somthing that is so different that you cant use strategies you found useful in the maingame, so thus there isn't a community (read: "commune") rather a group of people, that come toggether to talk about DIFERENT games, its all rather sad
Dale- your (last) reply is the one that is rather childish, instead of contributing to the actual disscusion you rather attack me personaly, again, pretty funny
dale said-"On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up. "
again with the personal mudslinging, actually i ment the apoliton community, unless we are all woirking for sid ?
First, I have no time to risk on a game that I know has already caused me great disappointment. Yeah, maybe modded Ctp2 is a good game, but at this point, I just don't have the time or desire to mess with the mess.
anikoba said-"And, I guess I was trying to compliment the modders by saying the game is half-way playable after mod application. You are right- I don't know this for sure (though I won't be betting any money on it either). And as a side note: I can criticize all things I know, don't know, or make up- it's the journalistic way.
Lastly, I agree that a game's life will be greatly enhanced by injecting mods into it. But Ctp2 is more like a premature baby on life support with it's mods, rather than a grand-parent that we don't want taken away from us."
thats what ive been trying to say, but people lke dave (not pedrun, hes been the most adult-like person in this thread) rather make comment about me being stupid and such then actually argue, again its funny, sad, but funny
rooboy- what are you talking about? your last post made no sence, was it supposed to??
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Pedrunn
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of Natal, Brazil
Jul 2001
time: 02:15
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Dale,
That thread really was a too personal attack.
Spangly,
Dale is right about some of your rebutals. We keep saying that modded CTP2 is great but you did not play it so. This really is annoying since all of our arguments a based on that. Again i tell you we cant criticize something we dont know.
CTP2 unmodded sucks (has a great potential but sucks) and almost everyone in this thread agree with this. We do not need you to tell us that.
But CTP2 modded is another story.
Last edited by Pedrunn on 24-08-2001 at 08:00
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Dale
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Sir! Why do you keep clicking on me?
Dec 2000
time: 15:15
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splangy:
Okay, so my last comment about your debating skills was a personal attack. For this I apologise. 
Your Honour! Can I have that comment striken from the record?
Now, back to debating Civ3 vs CTP2........
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ctp, a game that wont work without being modded is not a game
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Technically, your comment is incorrect. CTP2 out of the box does work, and does provide some people a challanging game. Also, CTP2 fullfilled the design docos (as published by Activison in their letter to the CTP community) so CTP2 is a complete game. However, and I'm sure EVERYONE in these forums and other sites as well will agree, CTP2 out of the box is unbalanced, extremely passive AI, and a few annoying bugs. But Civ2 was not without these out of the box either. How many patches/updates were published for Civ2? Might I remind you of the "HEY! That phalanx shot down my super-duper nuclear powered stealth fighter with his spear! " situations. So neither CTP2 or Civ2 were without their share of problems. The difference is that Civ2 had continual support from the publishers/designers for patches and updates, whereas CTP2 had all support dropped by Activision. This is the fundamental problem with CTP2 and WHY Wes, David and myself went forth and created three great MODS to do what the patches and updates WOULD have done.
So in reality, CTP2 IS a complete functioning game as it a) RAN, b) Fullfilled the design docos, and c) provided a Civ experience similar to CTP1 but enhancing on it. Both CTP2 and Civ2 are the same out of the box, with inconsistencies, imbalance and bugs. So by your own arguement, are you saying that Civ2 is not a game because it needed patches/updates/mods to run correctly?
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dale said-"On point 2: You say that I "follow a bunch of people who guess what the game is like"? So Firaxis don't know what their own game is like? You crack me up. "
again with the personal mudslinging, actually i ment the apoliton community, unless we are all woirking for sid ?
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What I said was not personal mudslinging. Anyways, my original point 2 that I said had the VERY clear distinction that it was the FIRAXIS Civ3 mailing list, not the APOLYTON Civ3 mailing list.  I just got a very big laugh and said it cracked me up.
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wesses medmod can be considered its own game, just as cradle, and apoliton, these are not mods, a mod is somthing that you play to change the game A LITTLE, not somthing that is so different that you cant use strategies you found useful in the maingame
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Just a simple clarification on Apolyton Pack MOD. It does not change the game in adding or subtracting things. All the MOD does is FIX the imbalances in the original game. Running AP you will still have the same game as the original just it will be balanced, the stupid AI decisions gone, and the fixable bugs fixed.
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so thus there isn't a community (read: "commune") rather a group of people, that come toggether to talk about DIFERENT games, its all rather sad
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Mudslinging? 
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Lastly, I agree that a game's life will be greatly enhanced by injecting mods into it. But Ctp2 is more like a premature baby on life support with it's mods, rather than a grand-parent that we don't want taken away from us."
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This is all up to personal opinion. A lot of people are actually enjoying the experience in CTP2 + MODS. I for one have moved on from CTP2. However, I still come to the forums here for news on Civ3 and to support the CTP2 community as I can.
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rather make comment about me being stupid
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I've never said "stupid". I said............
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I'm argueing vehemently with a 13 year old still at school who wouldn't have done full-scale debating yet. That would explain all the holes in the rebutals.
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This is a comment on how you wouldn't have had full-scale debating in English yet. But I digress dangerously near that line again. It would be best for us to dump this argueing line.....
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Pedrunn
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of Natal, Brazil
Jul 2001
time: 02:15
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Civ3 army is terrible. You can only build army with Elite units. and needs a small wonder. You can only buid 1 army for each 4 cities. And instead of a battle view they will add defesnse/Attack points.
Those ideas are all unballancing features.
1) The only civs that can build armies are military civs that already have experience in combat (Elite Units). That means if a military civ decides to attack a pacific one . The pacific one can be considered dead. Since they will never get Elite units. The armies of the military civ will be much stronger and kill the ones that try to reach that level. And not getting Elites they will never have armies. So they will never win a war (Armies are way too powerful).
2) Big civs will be able to build more armies. So they will be much militaristicly stronger. What will keep mantainig this civs bigger and bigger.
Without mentionig the ICS characteristics wich should be avoided.
Conclusion
The army is too hard to get and the ones who get those will be much stronger. In a effect that really look like the CTP1 Space Layer. The first one to get to it wins.
PS: Dale, If they only used you combat model. Wich i think it is the best (i had already suggest that model to The List when i was part of the civ3 communty).
Last edited by Pedrunn on 24-08-2001 at 08:53
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Pedrunn
Bad News
Civ3 is on Beta now.
Arent you guys considering that they still havent improved the terrain. 
Since they did not make it in the last 3 years they probably wont in the next 3 months.  |
Whats wrong with the terrain? did you look at the most recent screenshots?
dale said-
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It would be best for us to dump this argueing line.....
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then you said
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Mr Burns - "As simple as taking candy from a baby."
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im not whining but aren't you contradicting yourself??
"Dale is right about some of your rebutals. We keep saying that modded CTP2 is great but you did not play it so. This really is annoying since all of our arguments a based on that. Again i tell you we cant criticize something we dont know. "
I HAVE PLAYED MODDED im basing my arguments off of that fact, witch is why i dont seem to have a good rebuttle, im having problems arguing about a group of games, if you would like to state a group of things that they all have in commen id argue against that, or if you use 1 mod ill argue against that, but i really cant argue vs a group of games, some i have, some i dont ( i have cradle and apoliton) becouse they are all different. cradle has new units, apoliton dosen't, cradle has wonder units, apoliton dosen't, (does apoliton only fix bugs?) etc.
"CTP2 unmodded sucks (has a great potential but sucks) and almost everyone in this thread agree with this. We do not need you to tell us that.
But CTP2 modded is another story. "
like i said, what story would that be?
ps- dale, i kindly ask you refrain from calling me a 13 year old (witch im definetly not). you try and come up with a argument vs civ1/2/3 vs ctp, its not easy.
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Pedrunn
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of Natal, Brazil
Jul 2001
time: 02:15
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Civ3 will be hard to mod.
CIVS
The start screen does not support more civs. So that you cant make new civs just edit the new ones.
Even edited we will have to use the Leader face of the original.
UNITS
The Graphics are too dificult to make.
They will have only attack, defense and movement characteristics. So what is the point of adding a new unit that probably will have the cahracteristics of an original one.
Modders wont be able to use their imagination. This considering that you can add units.
TECHS
The Science screens are divided by ages. So how will you be able to go futher to the future if you dont have space to add those. Not to mention in that screen the Tecs seemed to have a fixed spot.
Last edited by Pedrunn on 24-08-2001 at 09:14
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splangy
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of my own little kingdom...
Jun 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Pedrunn
Civ3 army is terrible. You can only build army with Elite units. and needs a small wonder. You can only buid 1 army for each 4 cities. And instead of a battle view they will add defesnse/Attack points.
and have 3 size 12 armies in ancient in ctp was relistic? this way will limit early wars, and make armies special.
[QUOTE] Those ideas are all unballancing features.
1) The only civs that can build armies are military civs that already have experience in combat (Elite Units). That means if a military civ decides to attack a pacific one . The pacific one can be considered dead. Since they will never get Elite units. The armies of the military civ will be much stronger and kill the ones that try to reach that level. And not getting Elites they will never have armies. So they will never win a war (Armies are way too powerful). |
what do you have against pacific civs j/k
well, considering its not easy to get real experienced troops that wont neccessarily happen, plus the same thing already happens in ctp2 (modded)
quote:
2) Big civs will be able to build more armies. So they will be much militaristicly stronger. What will keep mantainig this civs bigger and bigger.
Without mentionig the ICS characteristics wich should be avoided. |
well, pacifist civs will have a better country (culture, science, ect) hopefully the 2 tank armies can stop 5 cavalry armies. but hopefully new features (read: resources) can slow expansionasts dow so they dont get that large, but hasn't the large civ always had power? (US, USSR, NAZI Germany, Rome, The Khanite)
quote:
Conclusion
The army is too hard to get and the ones who get those will be much stronger. In a effect that really look like the CTP1 Space Layer. The first one to get to it wins. |
armies can also be
built after nationalism is discovered.
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PS: Dale, If they only used you combat model. Wich i think it is the best (i had already suggest that model to The List when i was part of the civ3 communty). |
what was his like??
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Pedrunn
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of Natal, Brazil
Jul 2001
time: 02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by splangy
what do you have against pacific civs j/k
well, considering its not easy to get real experienced troops that wont neccessarily happen, plus the same thing already happens in ctp2 (modded) |
The other way around. You should ask what i have in favor of them. Since the civ3 combat model clearly does only benefit the militaristic ones.
Explain how that happens in CTP2, all civs are able to make armies not only with veterans units.
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well, pacifist civs will have a better country (culture, science, ect) hopefully the 2 tank armies can stop 5 cavalry armies. but hopefully new features (read: resources) can slow expansionasts dow so they dont get that large, but hasn't the large civ always had power? (US, USSR, NAZI Germany, Rome, The Khanite)
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Now you are just making new features up. Try to concentrate on what is official.
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armies can also be
built after nationalism is discovered.
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What about before that. Nationalism is an advance of the second half of the game
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22-08-2001 04:51
That would explain all the holes in the rebutals. Maybe I shouldn't be too rough on him then. 
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