08-08-2001 02:00									#1
	The Best: Civ3 or CTP2? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by splangy umm ill start a new debate, uhhhh, civ3 more goodly than ctp2. there we go a nice intellegent debate should spring up from that one

This thread was first proposed by splangy(checked twice to see if it is right ). I know that we cant say much about civ3 because it is still in the third alpha but we all have are opinion about it and it is something cool to debate about it so here we go.

I had the same expectations that you have about it but i got disappointed. And i choose CTP2 rather than civ3 because of these major things:

1)No future - The future is one of the ages I enjoy the most (to see that the thing i miss from CTP1 is the space layer). So when i heard about the only 88 techs of civ3 I forgot all about civ3. So I rather have the 150's advances(how many are exactly with MM2?) of CTP2. Not to mention that seeing your empire going from the Nomads to the Stars are very pleasant.

2)Only 7 civs - When i left the civ3 that was just a suposition but Jeff Morris confirmed in his interview. Again rather have the 32 max of CTP2.

3)Special Units - I just love to move slavers, Corporate Branchs, and Ecoterrorist.

4)PW - A matter of choice. Although i kind of prefer a mix between the two systems. Having workers but needing to spend something on the imps either money or PWs (just dreaming about it ). But in the conflict Workers x PW i rather go with the PWs.

5)Wonder Units/ Elite Units - These concepts were added by the mods. And they are incredible, much better the civ-specific. Although any of the mods have this two together but in my computer i added both ( I kind of have my own mod but i am still thinking if i should get it in public).

6)Terrain - This one is the last because anyone knows for sure if the terrain that is appearing in the screenshots are the one they will use. Seems a Alpha but nobody knows for sure. But it is clear for anyone that the CTP2 terrain are much much much better than the civ3 actual ones. And to think that at the begginig i was hoping a 3D terrain like SMAC .

The only thing i see as a pro to civ3 is the trade system that is everything i always dreamed about it in the civ genre.

	08-08-2001 06:08									#2
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he he i certainly am intelectual arent i

1-that is very opinoinated, some like it some dont, i dont

2-9 civs will be in with the abillity to edit it for 16 so i beat you there (in ctp i know no one who could play with 32, the turn time is soooo much)

3- another opinion thingy, but i do like many units, just not things like "abolitionists"

4- i go the other way, plus workers are now gona be smart ( i heard) and colonys will rule the tedius pw world

5- you can turn off civ specifics, and you can get leader units to lead your civ to victory, also unuique wonders that can be built by everyone after you meet the right prequisets (isnt this ctp vs civ3? it looks like ctp-heavly modded vs civ3)

6- terrain cant really be judged as firaxis said that those screenshots are old.

7- trade system is butiful isnt it??

8- you cant talk about civ3 without mentioning culture, what a MAJOR adition

9- units being built from real materials is pretty nice as well

10- miny wonders are very nice aditions that allow you to develop a real civ over time

this is in a ctp2 forum so i can suspect most posts will be biased towards ctp2, but im ready

	08-08-2001 08:25									#3
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How can you compare a game that has been released to one that is yet to be released??

Nobody can tell me exactly how good/bad Civ 3 is gonna be. Most features will come down to personal opinion, therefore what one person will love another may hate. That's why splangy is getting hard over Civ 3, while others just dismiss it as ****e.

Personally, I believe you can't accurately compare the games until Civ 3 has been released.

Another point I'll mention is how ****e CTPII was out of the box. If it weren't for the mods, there would be no discussion here.

	08-08-2001 09:44									#4
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Until now I don't know much about the features civ3 will have. Does anybody know, if there will be stacked combat?

If not, I'll stay with ctp2 (MedModded of course)!

Regarding some of the other discussion points:

1) I love the future !
I'm a great fan of cyberpunk-sci-fi-scenarios and CTP (1 and 2) includes a lot of cyberpunk ideas (e.g. corporate republic, cyber ninjas (which are called street samurai in most other sources) and eco-warfare).

2) I never play CTP2 with less than 15 civs.

3) Moving slavers and abolitionists is O.K., because they attack certain cities, but commercial warfare as it is carried out by corporate branches and lawyers should be handled globally like trade.

4) I hated PW when I first started CTP. Meanwhile I got used to it, but I'd prefer real worker units (In civ2 I had always 1 or 2 engeneers behind my attacking armies which build railroads for my supply lines. This was great ).

Since I don't know much about civ3, I can only comment the things I like or don't like in CTP2.
I hope civ3 will be a milestone, which makes everybody forget all the other games of this genre, as civ1 did once, but I don't know if it will meet these expectations.

Last edited by Der PH on 08-08-2001 at 09:56

	08-08-2001 12:18									#5
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quote: Originally posted by rooboy That's why splangy is getting hard over Civ 3, while others just dismiss it as ****e.

Im getting HARD over civ3?? im not HARD over it, i tend to like it alot though and we might possibly get hitched, but i still have to make sure its alright with her parents, i can tell those people who don't like her never got to know her. shes very "nice", if you know what i meen

(i need more sleep )

thanks for the laugh!!

Der ph

ALL of what you said is oppinionated, but i agree with #4

	08-08-2001 13:09									#6
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""2) I never play CTP2 with less than 15 civs.""


I'm sorry if this has been asked before but I'm relatively new to this game. How does one play with >8 civs? Whenever I setup a game I only see 8 as the maximum number I can pick in CTP2. Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks

	08-08-2001 13:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by splangy Der ph ALL of what you said is oppinionated

Of course it is!

The question, which game is the best, is naturally a matter of opinion, I think. Everybody has to decide it for himself and should play the game he likes the most. For me this is CTP2 (MedMod) at the moment. In the past it has been civ1, colonization, civ2, MOO2 and a lot of others.

	08-08-2001 13:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich I'm sorry if this has been asked before but I'm relatively new to this game. How does one play with >8 civs?

Somewhere in the filetree (I'm writing this message on a computer, where no CTP2 is installed, so I can't check it out right now) there is a file called USERPROFILE.TXT. At the beginning of this file there is a line which says something like NumOfPlayers=???.
Change the number ??? to the number of civs you want, save the file and start a new game (original or modded, it makes no difference).
The settings screen for the new game now will show the number of civs you chose. DON'T click on this button to change it, because then you will only be offered the usual 2 to 8 civs! Just leave the number as it is and you will have plenty of civs in your game.

I heard, that other players have problems with this method. I don't, but they say, that enabling write-protection for USERPROFILE.TXT helps against these problems.

	08-08-2001 14:01									#9
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Thanks Der PH for your help


I will try this out later today when I get home from work!

	08-08-2001 14:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by splangy he he i certainly am intelectual arent i 1-that is very opinoinated, some like it some dont, i dont 3- another opinion thingy, but i do like many units, just not things like "abolitionists"

Oh oh, two matter of preference. At first i though the abolitionist stupid but it had to be there as an antagonist to the slaver. And it is very helpful to revolt civs in the early game. The unconventional warfare is somthing i just love, great additon and increases the realism.
Der PH you are right about it is a matter of oppinion. Who likes future, others warfares and PWs will prefer CTP2. Although we are trying to concetrate in the commom point and the presence/lack of this points.

quote: 7- trade system is butiful isnt it?? 8- you cant talk about civ3 without mentioning culture, what a MAJOR adition 9- units being built from real materials is pretty nice as well 10- miny wonders are very nice aditions that allow you to develop a real civ over time

7- indeed it is.

8- I dont see culture as a great addition. I thik it is dispensable. If only there was units to change it like a cleric or the slaver (culture would low with the entrace of others civ people).

9- Another great thing from the Trade System. It sure is the most decisive pro.

10 - Adds realism but not much in gameplay. I rather have the fight to see who gets what first.

quote: 5- you can turn off civ specifics, and you can get leader units to lead your civ to victory, also unuique wonders that can be built by everyone after you meet the right prequisets (isnt this ctp vs civ3? it looks like ctp-heavly modded vs civ3)

Dont get me wrong i liked the idea of civ-spec it is just that the Elite and Woder units concepts are much better.

Rooboy is right, CTP2 unmodded looses to civ3 and even to civ2. So only modded things get even and CTP2 may be better(what i think it will be).

	08-08-2001 14:20									#11
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double post

Last edited by Pedrunn on 08-08-2001 at 14:30

	08-08-2001 14:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH Until now I don't know much about the features civ3 will have. Does anybody know, if there will be stacked combat? If not, I'll stay with ctp2 (MedModded of course)! Regarding some of the other discussion points: 1) I love the future ! I'm a great fan of cyberpunk-sci-fi-scenarios and CTP (1 and 2) includes a lot of cyberpunk ideas (e.g. corporate republic, cyber ninjas (which are called street samurai in most other sources) and eco-warfare).

Here is something i dont know and it also is a major point. How civ3 will handle combat. If one-against-one like civ2...

Not just Eco-warfare, but commercial warfare, diplomacy warfare, slavery warfare, if only there was a culture warfare (culture could be a great point to bad firaxis didnt know how to explore the new concept).

	10-08-2001 03:59									#13
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CIV 3 willl have stacked combat, were you build armys:

1 army for evey 4 citys in the beginning
after you discover nationalism you build army units wicth put armies together
and a great leader unit can build one (by the way, we already know that there will be atleast 3 levels of experience in civ3, pluss great leaders )


civ3s armys will fight like this.

the best unit (best attacker or defender based on wether your attacking or defending) will step up and fight there best, then when the unit reaches red, he steps down and lets another unit up. thus as the game goes on each side will have a cold war to see who will build the best armies.
there will be airstrikes
there will bombardment, however bombarding units will need to be maned (in a army with infantry), and can only soften the defences, and cannot fight.

according to a good source (not a reveiw, maybe an interveiw) you will have so much touble taking over the world, that you can win by taking over 75% of the world. probably due to culture.

ps- the civ3 website is going up either tommorow or saturday- www.civ3.com

	10-08-2001 09:09									#14
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Are those info about combat official? I never heard about them.

	10-08-2001 09:41									#15
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The website is up now.

Can't find anything regarding combat though, so we will have to take Splangy's word, if we can do that? I'm sure he will play Civ 3 with just the one hand for both the mouse and the keyboard!!

	10-08-2001 09:59									#16
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Just finished reading civ3.com. Very interesting reading in there. A lot of people said "CTP is just a ripoff of Civ2." After reading what will be in Civ3 you could almost say that Civ3 is a ripoff of CTP2.

1. Units support from national pool, not from city built in. (CTP started it)
2. Stacked combat. (CTP started it)
3. Centralised trade system, no more caravans. (CTP started it)
4. Diplomacy bargaining table, multiple requests in a proposal. (CTP started it)
5. Borders. (CTP started it)
6. Special units. (CTP started it)

Just a comment. Besides, you can't compare two games when one isn't even out. We don't know what the AI will be like, we don't know the final terrain graphics, we don't know a LOT about Civ3 yet.

I reserve judgement.

	10-08-2001 10:35									#17
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1. Very good point Dale.
2. Ditto.
3. Yep.
4. Oui.
5. Ja.
6. Once again, you guessed it, yes. I don't recall bombarding cities in previous games.

Here's something else for everyone to ponder: Nothing's perfect!

	10-08-2001 15:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dale Just finished reading civ3.com. Very interesting reading in there. A lot of people said "CTP is just a ripoff of Civ2." After reading what will be in Civ3 you could almost say that Civ3 is a ripoff of CTP2. 1. Units support from national pool, not from city built in. (CTP started it) 2. Stacked combat. (CTP started it) 3. Centralised trade system, no more caravans. (CTP started it) 4. Diplomacy bargaining table, multiple requests in a proposal. (CTP started it) 5. Borders. (CTP started it) 6. Special units. (CTP started it) Just a comment. Besides, you can't compare two games when one isn't even out. We don't know what the AI will be like, we don't know the final terrain graphics, we don't know a LOT about Civ3 yet. I reserve judgement.

1 ohh gee, you really expect them to stick to the anchient way of support?
2 again, this HAD to be in for the game to even contend
3 what? you had to build caravans in ctp, in civ there is no build of caravans
4 another thing that the game had to have to contend, plus civ 3's will be very deep and real.
5 borders are a direct tye to culture, thus they did NOT take it from ctp.
6 what? ctp has no unique units. every civ can build the lawyer. in civ3 its civ specific units.

do you guys realise that in other forum we joke about ctp like, "what if civ3 had as many bugs as ctp? would we have to mod it to the point were non of its original code existed as well?"
. im just saying this becouse, while ctp2 is already out there wont be a ctp 3 (as said by activision) thers a chance for a civ4 thou... maybe you should try to convert so in the end theres somthing to look forward to.

ps- i got the civ3 combat info of the preveiw site (the old one), from interveiws, and were they were mentioned in more than one reveiw.

	10-08-2001 18:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by splangy do you guys realise that in other forum we joke about ctp like, "what if civ3 had as many bugs as ctp? would we have to mod it to the point were non of its original code existed as well?" . im just saying this becouse, while ctp2 is already out there wont be a ctp 3 (as said by activision) thers a chance for a civ4 thou... maybe you should try to convert so in the end theres somthing to look forward to. ps- i got the civ3 combat info of the preveiw site (the old one), from interveiws, and were they were mentioned in more than one reveiw.

And it is to joke about what activison did was a terrible job. But the modders work on that because they saw a lot of potential in the game and it does have it. That is what Dale was trying to show you. CTP has a lot of great ideas and even will civ3 use some of them. See your aswers again, most of them is telling how civ3 is going to inprove this ideas and that is exactly what the modders made and are making.

Still i do not think this info is official since like you said it is a old preview. It wasnt one of them that said about the only 7 civ in the game?

	10-08-2001 18:46									#20
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You said good points during are debate. And i must say you almost changed my mind. But i am still sticked with CTP2 to 2 major things.

1) Future.

2) Special Units ( slaver, cleric, abolitionist, lawer...)

And others things that arent confirmed by Firaxis yet. And could change with future informations.

1)Stacked combat

2)Good Graphics (specially terrain)

	10-08-2001 21:05									#21
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Today I looked into civ3.com and I have to say: Looks very nice!
I've always missed the city view since Civ1 (The view in Civ2 was terrible) and the graphics they show in the screenshot gallery look very promising.

But graphics are not everything!
Gameplay will determine, with which game I'm going to waste my precious spare time in the future.

	10-08-2001 21:41									#22
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The only thing that I want of innovations in them is:

A way of you can use a base of government's system and to alter the details.
A market / trade more efficient and well more complicated and more lucrative, after all, nowadays everything wheel in the market.
But progresses for the modern and future age, and who knows to create progresses for the future.

And besides cities, to name mayors, it would be legal, for instance, if you activate the mayors, the counselors or Congress, he should say that the people want for the empire. If they want war, or development in the cities, more wages, or tie more employments.

And should have a system of counselors more advanced, and detailed.

It would be cool, you can place names in continents, world conventions of military, diplomats and environmentalist.
Besides cities, you could also create, or to name, areas, provinces and states of your empire.

A thing that would be more legal, is to give more emphasis to the capital of the state.
Or to name rural cities / industrial / military cities.

	10-08-2001 21:44									#23
	Economic is the KEY! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think should create like this.

Inside of government's systems. There would be a specialization
Example:

Democracy / Virtual / Military / Economical / it Informs.
Republic / Parliamentary / Presidential / Monarchic / Soldierly
Socialism / Communism / Liberal / Military / Closed

Besides the Military Governments that many in ours historize, mainly of Latin America and Europe, they were good governments with great economy.

Besides governments' system, it should create the economical systems.
Liberal / Closed / Exporter / Importer / Protectionism and so many others that exist today.

He you should give but emphasis to the external market and much more for the intern.

	11-08-2001 00:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH But graphics are not everything! Gameplay will determine, with which game I'm going to waste my precious spare time in the future.

The Gameplay? That is mostly what we are discussing here.

I went to civ3.com and i became more optmistic about the graphics of it, anyway.

	11-08-2001 10:22									#25
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Something I haven't read here yet, and it counts as another plus of CTP2 over CIV2: The fact that within a reasonable period of time (say, by 1500AD) you have a pretty good idea of what the world looks like.

This is really important. In CIV2, I'd end up sailing about in a nuclear carrier, sending out my planes on mapping runs to find out where the oceans ran. Nothing like a modern navy out looking for the northwest passage. Further, the only way to see the map was to send your military romping through it.

In CTP2, I can send out a good number of non-military units (slavers, nobles, etc) which are fairly cheap (so I'm not losing too much by building a few extra for "Marco Poloing". Further, countries are pretty easy (especially when you get big) about exchanging maps. Like tonight - I went to war with the Greeks - they were originally pretty small (three cities) and I smoked two of them. When they asked for a cease fire, I asked for a map. The granted it. Well, it turns out a greek noble had been wandering about for years in lands I had no idea of. That was rather cool, to see a big portion of the map light up.

Anyway, just my 2 cents...

	11-08-2001 15:44									#26
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Bra_Titan : well not exactly as you've pointed out , but Social Engineering like would be sweet.

as pointed out numerous time here , you can't compare anything with something you don't know almost anything about . Well yes , many things have been published , including on this magnificent site , but still , noone of us hasn't played the game so....

	11-08-2001 17:03									#27
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Well, the way it looks right now, every civ player will have to ask [him|her]self the following question: "Would I rather play a really, really good Civ2.5 or do I want a slightly buggy and problematic Civ3?". In the first case you should play Civ3, in the second case CtP2 + MedMod (or Cradle). Personally I think I will like modded CtP2 better but that won't stop me from buying and playing Civ3 as well...

	11-08-2001 18:33									#28
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The thing I'd really like to know about CIV3 is "How modifiable will it be?" I haven't seen any info about what text files will be accessible or, even more importantly, what sort of programming language will it come equipped with. Has anybody?

	11-08-2001 19:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs The thing I'd really like to know about CIV3 is "How modifiable will it be?" I haven't seen any info about what text files will be accessible or, even more importantly, what sort of programming language will it come equipped with. Has anybody?

That is a major point. Probably someone will make a civ3 Mod to play in the future(and also probably taking CTP2 advances and units into it).
That way I will really consider buying it.

	11-08-2001 23:11									#30
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Yes, that is indeed a major point and unfortunately Firaxis doesn't have a very good reputation in this area. Making a scenario editor that easily allows players to add new units and advances and to make a map is one thing (and I'm sure they'll get that right) but making a scripting language or other advanced tools or text files that will allow some of the stuff CtP can do (edit the AI, edit the UI, SLIC, etc), is something different entirely. The fact that we haven't heard anything about this sort of thing yet makes me fear for the worst...