08-08-2001 21:17									#1
	Another AI Problem. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

the AI kind of has a "more then adept" knowledge of where the human player is on the map. attached is a picture of the world map, where i played as the Germans (i moved their start place to Australia for a twist).

the Aztecs seem to send a TRIMIERE across that straight line, moving directly towards my capital.

i wont even go into the trimere sinking thing. that has been addressed.

the fact is the AI cheats. a lot.

Attachment: aztec.gif
This has been downloaded 96 time(s).

	08-08-2001 21:37									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Isn't this a civ2 problem? I can tell because you speak of an "imperfect AI". Here in civ3 general we can't grasp the concept.

The computer has knowledge, as in most RTS and TBS games, of the map and everything about your civilization. Without that, it wouldn't stand a chance. Civ2, being an older game and run on less powerful machines, absolutely needed this boost. I'm sure civ3's AI will have similar perks, but not as many, given today's technology.

	08-08-2001 21:45									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This was definately a problem in civ2 and is, I think, a valid question for civ3. The AI should have to hunt for its opponents, just like the human. I do understand that the AI needs the little advantages like this to be competitive, but still.....

Also - Why'd you change your name SMACed/Wiglaf?

	08-08-2001 21:58									#4
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This is a SMAC problem too. The AI knows where everything is. Units like submarines are worthless because the AI ignores their game rules. Hiding units in fungus in SMAC too was worthless for anything other then defensive bonus. The AI should be forced to follow the FOG rules and have to explore on its own.

	09-08-2001 02:33									#5
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The way I see it, all these modifications, while good on paper, could kill civ3. The AI of today's games simply cannot balance all these variables. Ask alpha centauri any day. Now imagine SMAC times ten, and no AI cheats...not pretty. Firaxis would need a miracle to pull that off.

quote: Also - Why'd you change your name SMACed/Wiglaf?

I don't like caps lock, and I don't play Alpha Centauri as much as I used to. Ever read Beowulf? Besides, this forum could use a cool name for once

	09-08-2001 02:35									#6
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wiglaf sounds German. are you German?

	09-08-2001 03:43									#7
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ecthelion:

quote: wiglaf sounds German.

quote: Ever read Beowulf?

Beowulf is a mythical tale of the germanic(or how were they called in Caesar's days) tribes.

on topic:I think the creating of a good AI is possible but it takes a holle lot of time and it should be done in cooperation with some of the better players(eg the OCC champion Ribannah) on these boards.Using their different stratigies the game-AI could be made much better.

Shade

	09-08-2001 03:52									#8
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Ecthelion: Wiglaf is more Danish than German, and it appeared in Beowulf when it was published about a thousand years ago.

Shade: A good AI is extremely difficult to program. Chess programs can be made because chess is a systematic game; civ is such an open atmosphere almost any strategy is possible - therefore it's much easier to baffle a simple computer. No way an AI without any perks could stand up to a vetern human.

	09-08-2001 03:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

heh, Danish is a Germanic language, so the connection is justified... I read a summary of Beowulf. one day, I'll have to read Tolkien's essay on the Beowulf story.... but I'll finish reading the lost stories first

	09-08-2001 04:21									#10
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Wiglaf: trust me a have an idea of how hard it is to build an AI(and it was for a very simple game).But my suggestion is(since there are already 2 Civ games out) to use the tactics and trategies of veteran players(like ther are many on this board) .
Ask them what tactics they use,analyse,program combine and recombine parts.So the AI can get a bigger database of different strats to combine and use.most strats it uses now are just consequences of game rules.I think cooperation with such ppl would do the AI-program good.


Shade

	09-08-2001 04:33									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

They did something like that in civ2, and it worked quite well. The AI was an improvement over civ, and that was with minimal technology. Make no mistake, you're probably right - if they focused enough on it, a good AI could be pumped out. It would take a lot of effort and manpower though, so keep your fingers crossed.

	09-08-2001 04:42									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I didn't know that.
Yeah it would take a lot of time and manpower,but when one programmer has to do it only with his/her ideas and experiences it would take a lot longer.(I didn't say it would be easy,but it might be possible)question:do you know if they also did this for Civ3?

Shade

	09-08-2001 04:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Besides, this forum could use a cool name for once

What's wrong with my name?

	09-08-2001 10:16									#14
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The more complicated a game, the more the computer players need to cheat. That's why computer game designers should always try to simplify their designs. A game with a few flexible elements is a lot better than one with a lot of rules and exceptions.