10-08-2001 01:06									#1
	sabotaging units Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

AFAIK there are no precise results published yet.
Here are the results of my last test: sabotaging 100 enemy units with vet spies.
The spies always succeed: the enemy unit turns yellow, since it loses 1/2 of its strength.
28 spies were captured after sabotaging in my test.
I suppose that the general rule is:
no sabotaging of units by dips
50% losses with non vet spies
25% losses with vet spies

(La Fayette, strongly advising that someone runs the same test with non vet spies)

	10-08-2001 01:14									#2
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Without testing, I can assure you the non-vet spies are also always successful. I've no idea what their success rate is, tho.

Did you run this in a cheat mode test, or did you do this during a regular game?

	10-08-2001 02:15									#3
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So are you able to say there will be 100% success at disabling any strength unit, on any terrain, fortified/fortressed or naked*?

(* the unit, not Mata H)

And can repeated attempts result in a kill?

	10-08-2001 02:32									#4
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haven't sabotaged units for 5 years... how is it?

	10-08-2001 02:40									#5
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quote: Originally posted by cpemma So are you able to say there will be 100% success at disabling any strength unit, on any terrain, fortified/fortressed or naked*? (* the unit, not Mata H) And can repeated attempts result in a kill?

Yes, any unit standing alone outside a city can be sabotaged by a spy with 100% success. Each sabotage kills 1/2 the remaining hit points. No decreasing term attack of this kind (1/2, 1/2 of 1/2, 1/2 of 1/4, etc.) can kill a unit. Haven't tried ships or planes lately, but think they can be hit too, even at sea off a transport. Stacked units are immune to spies. Spy survival seems to be as La Fayette describes. Spies that survive return to friendly cities. Only reason to sabotage is that you can't buy (price too high or unit from democracy). Spy always survives when bribing a unit and either stays put or joins said unit in its space.

	10-08-2001 02:44									#6
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quote: haven't sabotaged units for 5 years...

Partisans in the mountains blocking your railroad are prime candidates if you don't have a howitzer handy...

I've lost tanks and helicopters on those varmints.

	10-08-2001 02:51									#7
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you build helicopters?

most fun is still to attack a mountain river fortress with several fortified vetran mech infs in them... attack it, you need about 10 armors per mech inf... vet tanks that is...

I once tried how many warriors I'd need to destroy such a mech inf... (river vet fort etc.)... it took me 200 warriors.... that rocked...

and the winning one didn't even get promoted to veteran mode

	10-08-2001 03:19									#8
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I've used it in MP to soften up.Pretty good for naval battles.I'll have some in a transport stacked with something.I''ve managed to sink several battleships with destroyers and cruisers with this.You can force a naval task force into either waiting to recover or retreating completely.
Works the same with bombers also.Sabotage it and a fighter will definitely finish it.
One problem is it doesn't work on stacked units so the opportunities can be rare.

	10-08-2001 03:44									#9
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quote: you build helicopters?

I've had too many fighters run out of juice thro' miscounting

	10-08-2001 08:05									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq Did you run this in a cheat mode test, or did you do this during a regular game?

I have never opened cheat mode yet
This was during my 'newworld' scenario (hard fighting BTW )

	10-08-2001 08:14									#11
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quote: Originally posted by cpemma So are you able to say there will be 100% success at disabling any strength unit, on any terrain, fortified/fortressed or naked*? (* the unit, not Mata H) And can repeated attempts result in a kill?

No kill (read Blaupanzer for details).
No result against bombers or stacked units.
Nice results against battleships along the coast.
I haven't noticed any other drawback (works anywhere against anybody)

	10-08-2001 08:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Only reason to sabotage is that you can't buy (price too high or unit from democracy).

Blaupanzer
I agree with you about anything you wrote (except planes).
But I strongly disagree on this.
The cost of sabotaging with vet spies is 8 shields rounded up (one lost in 4 attacks). This is VERY much cheaper than bribery.
I am an economist and, therefore I almost never buy units (apart from barbs, of course ).

	10-08-2001 08:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion most fun is still to attack a mountain river fortress with several fortified vetran mech infs in them... attack it, you need about 10 armors per mech inf... vet tanks that is...

Instead of that you send 3or 4 vet spies/ mech inf first and you kill every mech inf with one rifleman.
(you cannot sabotage stacked units, but you can attack units in afortress).

	10-08-2001 08:42									#14
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To make it short, sabotaging with vet spies is a low cost and highly efficient weapon (especially after you have learnt to 'size' your attack: one spy against most units, but 3 or 4 in a row against that bl** armor fortified on a mountain close to your main road).

(La Fayette, looking at a bunch of vet spies back from the battlefield).

	10-08-2001 09:21									#15
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OFF SPECIFIC TOPIC

quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion you build helicopters?

After you've played so many games of Civ, sometimes its fun to add a little variety to invasions

Played a scenario recently (the 20th Century scenario in the CivII downloads) as the Americans on large Earth, and I just traded for the first 20-30 turns or so, while all the other owrld powers were fighting. I got so far ahead technologically that the regular ho-hum invasion of howies and spies seemd far too boring to me. So i built an invasion force of stealth bombers, stealth fighters, helicopters (all on a carrier, go figure!!) and some battleships and AEGIS Cruisers. The bombers blew the crap out of the cities, the fighters cleared any guys around the cities, and the heli's captured the cities. Makes defending the newly captured cities interesting to say the least...

Happy civving

	10-08-2001 15:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Only reason to sabotage is that you can't buy (price too high or unit from democracy). .

If you're playing a Democracy and don't want to switch to Commie, sabotaging is a great way to get veteran spies. It can be done in peacetime, and doesn't immediately start a war.

	10-08-2001 15:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Only reason to sabotage is that you can't buy (price too high or unit from democracy).

I would add a second reason but I generally agree with your initial supposition. If your spy has only a partial move left, is adjacent to an enemy offensive unit and the chance to move away from the enemy unit is iffy, then sabotage is one way to (hopefully) get your spy out of danger.

There are many reasons why you might not want to bribe the enemy unit in question with the spy's remaining move even if you have enough gold. The bribed unit becomes attached to the nearest city and this can often cause a (dem/rep) city to riot and takes shield resources away from the city as well.

	10-08-2001 21:51									#18
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Ecthelion, helicopters are very useful on large archipelago maps. Building a fleet of carriers to haul your fighters and bombers across a wide sea can be slow. The helicopters just shoot across the water, then pump lead into your distant neighbors. If you attack from an ocean square, only a ship can attack you. Altho limited, they do have some use.

	10-08-2001 23:46									#19
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As in the real world, the economics of war is different than the economics of peace. In war in the game, a unit at the point of attack is worth substantially more than a unit two or three transport moves away. Plus you didn't have to use any precious shields on that unit. In the real world, items become priced in terms of resources, rather than money. This because resources are limited, and the money only has value if you win.

I don't buy or sabotage units in my territory; I kill them. I do the two activities in their territory. In Fundamentalism (or Communism) as defined in the game, money is cheap, and transportation can take years.

La Fayette, have a degree in economics myself. Used to do economic mobilization analysis during the cold war. Now, I design databases. Picked up a Masters degree in European Economic History along the way.

	11-08-2001 22:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer La Fayette, have a degree in economics myself. Used to do economic mobilization analysis during the cold war. Now, I design databases. Picked up a Masters degree in European Economic History along the way.

Congratulations, herr doktor!

	13-08-2001 21:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Congratulations, herr doktor!

Thank you. Point was, though, that economic analysis (gold versus shilds) is only part of the point. Marginal value of the unit to be bribed is increased because: a) it is at the front, b) it will be a none, and c) it takes none of your own shields. These are offset to some degree if: a) the player has control of the seas -- allowing ship chains, b) the player is in a government that doesn't care if units are away from home, and c) if money is a shortage item to a greater degree than shields. If the second set of restrictions apply, a little sabotage never hurts. Of course the best bribed units come from bribed cities.

Did I just read that sabotaging units does not create an incident leading to a declaration of war?

	14-08-2001 04:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Did I just read that sabotaging units does not create an incident leading to a declaration of war?

I don't remember any incident of that kind (but haven't tested thoroughly)

(a small group of economists discussing economy in civ2)

	15-08-2001 14:59									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Did I just read that sabotaging units does not create an incident leading to a declaration of war?

That is correct. However, don't be too suprised if you get sneak attacked shortly afterwards.

	15-08-2001 19:06									#24
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Very interesting that an act of terrorism in the field doesn't lead to war! As Thoth points out, it does bear the same risks as bribing a unit or a city at the "no incident" price. Still, this is useful when a stack of AI units occupies one of your forts (built by the previous owners; I only build forts I will occupy) during a cease fire. Reduces the subsequent effectiveness of those units in the inevitably reinitiated war.